Mormon Dilemma 82

18 October

Babies; When Baby Kicks Spirit Enters Body

Journal of Discourses 18:258-259; When the body is prepared, at the proper time, the spirit enters the tabernacle, and all the world of mankind in their reflections and researches must come to this conclusion, for the fact is they can come to no other—that when the mother feels life there is an evidence that the spirit from heaven has entered the tabernacle.” – Brigham Young, Salt Lake City, October 8, 1876

Genesis 2:7; And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Psalm 139:13; For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.

So does this mean the “thing” growing inside the mother isn’t a human being until it kicks?

If the teaching by the prophet Brigham was true then abortion should be okay.

Then again, for the Mormon Church abortion is condoned…

Ensign, November 1998, pg. 71; Abortion is an ugly thing, a debasing thing, a thing which inevitably brings remorse and sorrow and regret…While we denounce it, we make allowance in such circumstances as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have serious defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.” – Gordon Hinckley

Genesis 9:6; Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Oh what a tangled web we weave…

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16 Responses to “Mormon Dilemma 82”

  1. fproy2222 October 18, 2011 at 6:44 pm #

    ([that when the mother feels life there is an evidence that the spirit from heaven has entered the tabernacle] and [So does this mean the “thing” growing inside the mother isn’t a human being until it kicks?])

    I like the way you took AN EVEDANCE of the baby being a spirit from God and tryed to turn it into the time when the baby becomes human.

    Did you make it up, or did you just reteach what someone else told you?

    fred

    anyone intrested in what was really being said by Brigham Young can go here;
    http://www.mormonismi.net/jod/18.txt

  2. fproy2222 October 18, 2011 at 6:47 pm #

    {Here is something else you left out}
    http://lds.org/ensign/1998/11/what-are-people-asking-about-us?lang=eng

    Question 3: What is your position on abortion?

    According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention there were more than 1,200,000 abortions performed in 1995 in the United States alone. What has happened to our regard for human life? How can women, and men, deny the great and precious gift of life, which is divine in its origin and nature?

    How wonderful a thing is a child. How beautiful is a newborn babe. There is no greater miracle than the creation of human life.

    Abortion is an ugly thing, a debasing thing, a thing which inevitably brings remorse and sorrow and regret.

    While we denounce it, we make allowance in such circumstances as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have serious defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

    But such instances are rare, and there is only a negligible probability of their occurring. In these circumstances those who face the question are asked to consult with their local ecclesiastical leaders and to pray in great earnestness, receiving a confirmation through prayer before proceeding.

    There is a far better way.

    If there is no prospect of marriage to the man involved, leaving the mother alone, there remains the very welcome option of placing the child for adoption by parents who will love it and care for it. There are many such couples in good homes who long for a child and cannot have one.

  3. fproy2222 October 18, 2011 at 8:13 pm #

    “Like you said”, you forget to tell the whole truth and use a sound bite that can be tuisted into making it look like we say something we did not say.

    Did you creat the deception, or did you just teach what someone else taufht you?

    fred

  4. discoveringgrace October 18, 2011 at 9:13 pm #

    They want to be called Christian and consider themselves pro-life yet “make allowances” when it comes to taking an unborn child’s life. That’s not Christian or pro-life. 🙁

  5. shematwater October 19, 2011 at 8:00 pm #

    DISCOVERING

    Is it better to condemn the unborn child, or the mother who will die if the pregnancy is taken to term?
    What of a girl who is the victim of rape: Do we condemn the girl to a reminder of the hideousness of the experience, or do we free her from the continual pain such would bring.

    I notice that many people have this fanatical adherence to the sanctity of life, but only consider the life of the unborn, while ignoring the life of the mother. We are pro-life: Pro-life in regards to the child, and pro-life in regards to the mother. If the birth of the child would destroy the life of the mother we allow the mother the choice of preserving hers, but counsel that such a choice should only be made under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

    No, we do not simply allow abortion. We advocate against it in all circumstances, holding adoption up as a better way. But in the extremes of life we allow a person to choose their dignity and their life rather than the unknown life of an unborn child.

    (I would add that most people I know believe that any abortion should be performed in the first trimester, before any real signs of life and sensation are detected in the unborn child.)

    • discoveringgrace October 20, 2011 at 1:52 pm #

      So the baby should be punished for the crimes of the father? Why? In either situation you put forth I would suggest that both women look to the Lord for help in getting through the challenges ahead of them. Do you really think God didn’t know that girl would get raped, or that Mother would get pregnant? He did, and he’s in control of it all. Medical science doesn’t know everything, prayer is a much stronger tool when facing obstacles like this, it’s what’s going to get you through.

      The argument you used as you ended your comment is very common one among the pro-abortioner’s. Just because you can’t feel the baby move doesn’t mean there aren’t “signs of life”. Take a look at this link and tell me there’s no real life going on there.

      http://www.webmd.com/baby/1to3-months

      A few weeks ago at church during our pray meeting someone asked us to pray for a couple and their unborn child. The couple had been told that their baby would be born without a brain, and would only live moments after birth. Now someone else who agrees with the Mormons stance on abortion might say they should abort the child, “after all it’s not like it’s going to live very long.” But what if Medical science is wrong? The couple is choosing life for their child no matter how long it will be. – Melissa

  6. shematwater October 20, 2011 at 8:28 pm #

    DISCOVERING

    Why do you ignore what we say? You have assumed our teachings in regards to this, and have not considered anything I have said.

    We agree that prayer is the strongest tool when facing this kind of a crisis. But answer me this: What if a woman is praying and God tells her that it is okay to have the abortion because of the circumstances? Are you going to condemn that women when she has the sanction of God for the act?

    As to the couple you mention, you show your complete lack of understanding concerning our beliefs in your assumption that we would advise an abortion. We would never advise an abortion, and if the couple had chosen to carry the child to term we would support them completely in any way possible.
    However, if the couple had sincerely prayed and had come to the conclusion that an abortion was justified, we would also support them. In all truth, if this was the case we would likely never know about it, as such would never be announced in church.

    Anyone who advises a women to get an abortion, no matter what the circumstances are, is acting contrary to the gospel and the church teachings. However, if God has sanctioned the act after sincere prayer and supplication on the part of the mother and father (if present) then anyone who condemns them for the act is also acting contrary to the gospel.

    Try to actually understand what we are saying before you start condemning it.

    • discoveringgrace October 20, 2011 at 9:08 pm #

      I’m not “ignoring” anything Shem, but if you make allowances and exceptions for abortion as your church does you can hardly call yourself pro-life. You can’t say “Sure I’m pro-life but………….”

      And as far as prayer goes first you have to make sure your praying to the right God. When it comes to the Mormon god, I’m sorry to tell you but your prayers are falling to the ground. He can’t help you with anything because he doesn’t exist.

      I know full well what Mormonism teaches, just because I don’t believe it, follow it, or even agree with it doesn’t mean that I don’t understand it. I will always stand for and share the biblical gospel of Jesus Christ. And will always call a cult a cult, and a false teacher/prophet likewise.

  7. shematwater October 24, 2011 at 8:52 pm #

    DISCOVERING

    Why the hostility?

    If you were not ignoring what we said than why did you post not take it into consideration? Your last post assumed our advice is to have the abortion under these conditions, which is completely contrary to what we stated, and what our church believes. As such, I made the assumption that you did not really listen to what we said, and thus I said you ignored it.

    Simply put, when say that prayer and divine guidance is needed before making such a decision, and then you tell us that we would instantly advise in favor of the abortion, it seems that you have ignored what we have said.

    And try not to hijack the conversation, even if it is your blog. Doing so only gives the impression that you are trying to cover-up what you already did.

    I am not trying to insult or be rude, but let me give you my impression of your last post.
    “I didn’t ignore what you said. It is just that since I don’t believe your god exists your prayers don’t mean anything. Because of this what you say concerning prayer means nothing and so I will continue to say that you approve of abortion, as from my perspective you do.”
    In all honestly, your perspective means very little when describing what we believe.

    • discoveringgrace October 25, 2011 at 2:42 am #

      First of all let me say, don’t tell me what you do, you have zero authority over me. My blog is, my blog and if I choose to talk about the Mormon Church’s stance on abortion and give my opinion on it I’m free do to so!

      I’m fully aware that any perspective besides that of your prophets mean very little to you, you’ve proven that over and over again on this blog.

  8. shematwater October 26, 2011 at 5:45 pm #

    Discovering

    I am not telling anyone what you do, only giving friendly advise. Take it or don’t.
    Now, my advise was not concerning you opinion of our stance on abortion, but how you dismissed our counsel for prayer by basically stating that since we have a false religion such counsel is meaningless. This is not an opinion on the abortion stance, but an attempt to dismiss what we say so that you are justified in saying what you say.

    As to perspective, you have failed to understand my meaning. Quite honestly, the prophets perspective is generally of little meaning when discussing the doctrine or counsel of another religion. Just as an American perspective means little when discussing the culture of another country, or a white man’s perspective means little in discussing the condition of the black race.
    If one is to understand the doctrine of a religion, whether they believe it or not, they must approach it from the perspective of that religion. As you have approached our stance on abortion from the perspective of your religion, and not ours, what you say has little meaning because it comes from the wrong perspective.
    Just as what I or even President Monson says concerning your stance on religion, if it is approached from the perspective of our religion.

    Understand what I am saying?

  9. CamdenC October 27, 2011 at 3:34 am #

    Can we just all agree that there are 2 sides to this issue? One is either pro-life in all situations or one is pro-choice.

    Saying that there is an exception in certain situations, makes one pro-choice. I understand how the LDS view abortion, my mom even had an “Abortion Kills” bumper sticker on her car when I was a kid. But to even give someone an out in cases of rape or incest, is condoning the practice. There are doctors that are pro-choice that will say the mother is at risk, just so they can perform late-term abortions…

    Tim Tebow’s mom was told that she could die if she gave birth to him… Thanks be to our Great God and Savior that she didn’t listen to medical “experts”.

  10. shematwater October 27, 2011 at 5:58 pm #

    CAMDEN

    My point is that there are three sides to the issue. Or, more accurately, there are two ends that are joined by a whole range between, like the light spectrum. To say that if you are not red you are indigo is false and deceptive, and there are many wavelengths between the two.

    What you are saying to me it because I am not as red as you are I am indigo; and I am simply pointing out that I am truly orange, which is much closer to read than to indigo. But to you there can’t be an orange, and so, since it is not red, it has to be an indigo.

    Simply put, no I am not so fanatically pro-life that I am not sympathetic to the plight of the mother under certain circumstances. Nor do I think God is so heartless that he would not have mercy on a woman in the circumstances described.
    However, to say that I am pro-choice implies that I accept the woman’s right to choose as being more fundamentally important than the child’s right to live, and this is not what I accept.
    I accept the child right to live is most ofter the most important consideration, but that due to circumstances the rights of the mother may come to outweigh the rights of the child, and I am willing to let God be the judge of that.

    I think it would be better to say there are at least five sides to the issue, or degrees along the line. On one end is the fanatical pro-life that forbids abortion no matter what. on the other side is the fanatical pro-choice that allows abortion no matter what.
    Between these two are three other degrees.
    The common pro-choice, which states the woman has the right to choose, but such should not be a public choice and the politics should stay out of it.
    The middle ground, which states that in early terms abortion is a matter of choice, but that in later terms the life of the child is what should be considered.
    And then the common pro-life, which states that the life of the child is the most important, but due to varying circumstances the choice of the mother must also be considered at times.

    I, and the LDS church, are a part of this common pro-life group. Not so fanatical that we ignore the mother in the issue, but putting a greater importance on the life of the child than on the mother’s right to choose.

  11. CamdenC October 28, 2011 at 3:01 am #

    I know that we can agree that abortion is a terrible thing. I also know that we can agree that it is being used as “birth control” in probably 99.9% of cases.

    You are correct in saying that the decision is up to the mother… still I cannot support the act in any circumstance. I know it is easy to say that, but I have never been in the situation to where I had to make that decision. I pray to God that my family never has to hear, “Your daughter could die if she takes the baby to full term”. I have to trust that God will provide… He gives and takes away, Blessed be the Name of the Lord.

    I am with and support the American Family Association and their support of the Person-hood ammendent in Mississippi.

    53,000,000 babies have been aborted since Roe vs. Wade… That is 1/6 of this country’s popluation!!!

    Somebody once made an interesting observation. “Maybe we haven’t found a cure for cancer because the doctor or doctors that would have discovered it, were aborted before they were born”

  12. shematwater October 28, 2011 at 11:05 pm #

    Camden

    I have three sisters who were told that if they were to get pregnant again it would put their lives in jeopardy. One of them nearly bled to death as a result of the last labor.
    Also, with out last child my wife’s life was put into severe jeopardy, causing her to undergo a C-section two months premature. As a result she could not get pregnant for three years, or she would have risked reopening the stitches from that surgery.

    I am happy to tell you that none of my sisters are dead, nor is my wife. I am also pleased that these three sisters all have at least five children, and we have been told it is now safe for my wife to get pregnant again.

    The observation you mention is interesting. But it is also possible that we don’t have the cure because the ones who would have found it died in child birth because they were not allowed to preserve their own life.

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