Mormon Dilemma 230

22 April

Abrahamic Covenant  Abraham made covenants with God when he received the gospel, when he was ordained a high priest, and when he entered into celestial marriage. In these covenants, God promised great blessings to Abraham and his family. These blessings, which extend to all of Abraham’s seed, are called the Abrahamic covenant.

Holman Bible Dictionary; God made His second covenant with Abraham (Gen. 15:18; 17:2). As the covenant with Noah involved a righteous man (Gen. 6:8-9), so the covenant with Abraham involved a man of faith (Gen. 15:6). God initiated His covenant with this type of person, but this does not mean that the person earned God’s covenant with good works. Rather, this type of person was open to God’s actions and could be directed by God for His purposes. The covenant with Abraham, like that with Noah, involved divine promises, not human obedience. God promised to give the land of Canaan to Abraham’s descendants after a long sojourn to a foreign land.

Genesis 15:5-6; And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.  6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Abraham did not receive the gospel, he was not ordained a high priest and he didn’t enter into celestial marriage.  God made Abraham cast Hagar out to the wilderness because she was not part of the promise God had made with Abraham.  Abraham and Sarah made a grave mistake by having him father a child (Ishmael) through Hagar.

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8 Responses to “Mormon Dilemma 230”

  1. shematwater April 22, 2012 at 5:28 am #

    God commanded Hagar to return to Abraham when she tried to leave of her own free will.
    God never made Abraham cast her out, but did approve the action and told Abraham not to worry about doing it.

    If Abraham did not have the gospel than how in the world was he saved? If he didn’t have it and was saved, then why would any of us need it?

  2. thegardensofboxwoodmanor April 23, 2012 at 5:49 am #

    The Gospel is the NEW Covenant about Jesus born-died-risen so took place in the New Testament. Mormonism constantly confuses the Old Testament with the New Testament. We are under the New Convenant. This is clearly written in the Bible. Jesus fulfilled the Law of the Old Covenant whichwe could not. While we were still sinners, He died for us and paid that price so we don’t have to. God made a covenant with Abraham alone to let him know that his people would be many; that the Savior would come from his line and not Hagars.

  3. camdenc April 23, 2012 at 3:39 pm #

    He believed by faith in the promise of the coming Messiah, and that was accounted to him as righteousness. The Gospel being the good news that Christ has saved us from the punishment of sin through His finished work on the cross.

  4. shematwater April 23, 2012 at 10:01 pm #


    So, what you are saying is that the gospel is a term that describes only the knowledge after the fact, but not the looking forward to it? Seems to be a little silly.
    The question is did Abraham know Christ was going to come and perform the atonement, and was it through faith in this sacrifice that he was saved. If he did than he had the gospel. If he didn’t than he was saved without this sacrifice, and I repeat my question, why do we need to be if he didn’t.


    We confuse nothing. Actually, I have found more confusion with the rest of Christianity.
    The problem with the idea that you have of the Old of New Covenant is that it teaches a changing God. Before I say anything else answer this question. In the Old Covenant what saved a person and brought them eternal life?

  5. thegardensofboxwoodmanor April 24, 2012 at 12:49 am #

    Yes, Mormonism confuses things in the old covenant with things NOW in the NEW covenant. Rules, practices, temples, etc. are drawn up following the old covenant. This is gone. …

    Abraham was saved by his faith. He had no part in this as it was by God’s grace given to him. To assure Abraham, God gave him a Covenant (Gen ch. 15). In Gen 17:2 “My Covenant” , Abraham could “walk before” God and ” be blameless” only as he remained in the right relationship to God set forth in the covenant of grace.

    Now God doesn’t change and had all planned since the beginning. He set forth the Old Covenant to be fulfilled and SUPERCEDED by the NEW Covenant when Jesus was here. There is no confusion here as Jesus came and then the New Coventant took place ALSO by God’s grace (means undeserved love).
    As with Abraham, we Have No part in God’s plan for our salvation. All is by God’s grace and not earned by following rules, etc.

    “By grace are you saved and it is not of yourselves , lest any man shold boast.”

    All the rules and regulations that Mormonism put on its people are an unnecessary burden. Christianity is simply BY FAITH given BY GRACE from God that Jesus came, died, and rose again.
    Ask God!
    That’s it!

  6. shematwater April 25, 2012 at 5:36 am #


    Honestly, I find what you said to be more confusing than anything we teach.

    So, what you are saying is that Abraham was not saved through the atonement, but through the covenant he received. This was the Old Covenant.
    We, on the other hand, are saved through the atonement, which is the new covenant.
    Yet this is not a change because God always planned it, and both forms of salvation are through grace.
    So, I repeat again, what was the purpose of the atonement if Abraham was able to be saved without it through the Old Covenant. Why was a new Covenant even given if the old one was capable of saving men, as you seem to suggest was the case with Abraham.

    “Abraham was saved by his faith. He had no part in this as it was by God’s grace given to him.”

    So whay does James clearly teach that “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?”

    “Ask God! That’s it!”

    So, we can ignore Christ’s repeated command to be baptized; or His teaching that it is those that do the will of the Father that gain eternal life (Matthew 7: 21); or His parable of the Goats and the Sheep, teaching that by not doing good people will loose eternal life; or the parable of the Ten virgins, that teaches us to prepare and do that which will make us ready to receive Christ when he comes? I suppose Christ didn’t really mean any of this, as all he really wants us to do is ask.

    “All the rules and regulations that Mormonism put on its people are an unnecessary burden.”

    Funny. I have always thought of them as the greatest blessing in this life, and the means by which our burdens are made lighter.
    After all, if we obey the rules regarding health standards we preserve our bodies, so that we are not burdened by addiction or the fear of sudden and possibly fatal illness; as well as the stress and general lack of energy.
    The rules and regulations do not cause burdens; they help us prevent burdens from weighing us down.

  7. camdenc April 25, 2012 at 1:21 pm #

    Shem – We walk in the Spirit so that we don’t fulfill the lusts of the flesh… The flesh wars with the Spirit and there are times when we fail and give in to the flesh. We walk in the Spirit not out of fear or out of a sense of duty, but out of a Love for God and a “fear” that we will let Him down and displease Him.

    We also want to be ambassadors for Christ and a witness to the world. We want to honor the Lord with “holy living” so we are salt and light to the world. We are “ones set apart” just as the Hebrew law in the OT set apart the Jews from the Pagans, we are set apart by Christ through our Faith in Him and we are His representatives here on earth. The only Jesus some people will ever know, is the Jesus they know by observing members of the Body of Christ.

    We do good works because we have it on our hearts to help those around us, not so that we can earn salvation or a higher station in heaven.

    We don’t ignore any of Christ’s teaching… Christians should be baptized, we just don’t believe that it is necessary for salvation.

    Sheep and goats… Good works will not save you, they are fruit and proof that one has been saved. Sure, even atheists can do good works and be humanitarians… but where is their motive for doing it? Even our acts of good works tend to be selfish… we sometimes do them because it makes us feel better. All of our actions will be weighed and judged on motive… We should do out of love, just like the parable says we should. If we’re really followers of Jesus, this will show itself in love and care for those who count as the least of His brothers and sisters. And on the other hand, if we don’t have much sympathy for them, this may be a sign that we don’t really care all that much about Christ Himself. The evidence on which Jesus will reach His verdict on us – if you like, the evidence of whether or not we really do have faith in Him – will be how we have treated the least important, least significant members of His family. We don’t do good works in hopes that we will win more favor with God, we do them because we love Him. We are showing our faith by how we treat other Christians.

    The 10 virgins (5 foolish and 5 wise) parable is about whether or not you have the Holy Spirit in you… He was talking about when He returns in the clouds as the bride-groom to rapture his bride (the church), before the Tribulation. “No man knows the day or hour” and He will “come as a thief in the night”. Therefore be prepared… (Holy Spirit in you = Christ in you = “Caught up” to meet Him in the clouds =Salvation).

    • shematwater May 1, 2012 at 1:48 am #

      I did give a reply, but apparently someone didn’t like it, because it failed to post.

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