They Fell to the Earth in the Book of Mormon

12 July

They Fell to the Earth in the Book of Mormon

This is one in a series of several articles looking at various topics in the Book of Mormon. This article is focusing on the phrase “they fell to the earth”.  As I was gathering info on another topic I kept coming across this unusual phrase with different variations. Intrigued by its appearance, I decided to list it as a topic in our series so here we are!

Try as I might I can’t wrap my imagination around the idea of how an entire multitude of people could fall to the earth all at the same time. I wonder…did they fall on top of each other? Did anyone fall on small children? Did they fall in one direction so they wouldn’t hurt the person they were standing next to? How much space was there between each person and if it’s a fixed amount of space what happens if someone’s extra tall or overweight and they don’t fit in their allotted space when they fall to the earth?

Just how does an entire multitude of people go about falling to the earth at the same time?  Is there a drum roll?  While my questions may seem outlandish I think they’re about as plausible as the idea that an entire multitude of people would fall to the earth…over and over and over again.

Most importantly and above all else, how does this information in the Book of Mormon bring glory to God and/or bring you to a full understanding of God? How does this change or better your relationship with him?

I’ve listed twenty-one verses with a small excerpt from each. You’ll notice that in addition to people falling to the earth Joseph Smith seemed to have a thing for the word “astonishment”.  In one of our other articles we’ll be focusing on grammar in the Book of Mormon…  I highly encourage the Mormon to read the verses I’ve listed in full and decide if these things sound reasonable. Know that we’re praying for you!

With Love in Christ; Michelle Grim

1 Cor. 1:18

Jacob 7:15; “…the power of the Lord came upon him, insomuch that he fell to the earth…”

Jacob 7:21; “And when the multitude had witnessed that he spake these things…they were astonished exceedingly…and they were overcome that they fell to the earth.”

Mosiah 27:12; “And so great was their astonishment, that they fell to the earth…”

Mosiah 27:18; “And now Alma and those that were with him fell again to the earth, for great was their astonishment…”

Alma 14:27; “And it came to pass that so great was their fear that they fell to the earth…and the walls of the prison were rent in twain, so that they fell to the earth…”

Alma 18:42; “And now, when he had said this, he fell unto the earth, as if he were dead.”

Alma 19:14; “… and thus they all three had sunk to the earth.” – (Also notice this verse is one sentence with 88 words.)

Alma 27:17; “…and he fell again to the earth.”

Alma 36:7; “…and we all fell to the earth, for the fear of the Lord came upon us.”

Alma 36:10; “And it came to pass that I fell to the earth…”

Alma 36:11; “…that I fell to the earth and I did hear no more.”

Helaman 9:3; “…the chief judge had fallen to the earth…”

Helaman 9:4; “And now behold, when they saw this they were astonished exceedingly, insomuch that they fell to the earth…”

Helaman 9:5; “…therefore they did quake, and had fallen to the earth.”

Helaman 9:14; “…we were astonished insomuch that we fell to the earth …”

3 N 1:16; “And there were many, who had not believed the words of the prophets, who fell to the earth…”

3 Nephi 1:17; “…yea, in fine, all the people upon the face of the whole earth from the west to the east, both in the land north and in the land south, were so exceedingly astonished that they fell to the earth.”

3 Nephi 11:12; “… when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth…”

Ether 3:7; “And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth…”

Ether 3:19; “And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear…”

Ether 15:32; “And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the earth…”

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14 Responses to “They Fell to the Earth in the Book of Mormon”

  1. manxmandan July 13, 2012 at 4:07 pm #

    Are you serious? Is this a legitimate criticism of the word of God by one who claims to be sharing with “the love of Christ” ?

    I suggest you fall to the earth, and call upon the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ. Perhaps you will be astonished if you ask him to bear witness to you of the truth of his word. The Holy Spirit will witness that the Book of Mormon is true.

    http://manxchristian.wordpress.com/

  2. CamdenC July 13, 2012 at 11:06 pm #

    manxmandan – The only time I am familiar with a “multitude” of people falling to the earth is in John 18:4-6…

    4 – …”Whom seek ye?”
    5 – They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
    6 – As soon as he had said, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

    So a wild mob is coming to arrest and torture the Lord and when Jesus spoke, “I Am He” the power of His voice caused them to fall backward to the ground… Not only does Jesus have that power, but there is ultimate power in His Name.

    There are other instances in the Bible where a person would fall to the earth in fear, reverence, or worship… but c’mon, the whole multitude of the earth fell down?

    I guess that is easier to believe than say, people living on the moon or the sun…

    The Holy Spirit did convict me back in 1994… after being born and raised in the Mormon church and never being allowed to attend other churches. Or even read things about God that wasn’t from the LDS church, I finally had the freedom to accept an invitation to a Christian church when I was 26 years old.

    I heard for the first time in my 26 years of life as a Mormon, verses 8 and 9 in Ephesians chapter 2. It was like a weight was lifted off my shoulders and it truly felt as if the Holy Spirit was reaching into my chest and giving my heart a little squeeze, as if to break up the hardness of it. I soon found other verses that I had never memorized in seminary or studied during priesthood classes.
    1 Cor. 1:18 and Gal. 1:8 just to name a couple… What I also found (by reading through LDS books in my grandmother’s library) was strange things that I was never taught growing up…

    “But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins… for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail”. (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie – Pages 92-93)

    “To create is to organize. It is an utterly false and uninspired notion to believe that the world or any other thing was created out of nothing… (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce R. McConkie – Page 169).

    “Implicit in the Christian verity that all men are the spirit children of an Eternal Father is the usually unspoken truth that they are also the offspring of an Eternal Mother… that man is the “offspring of celestial parentage”, and that “all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity”. (Man: His Origin and Destiny – Pages 348-355, as quoted from Mormon Doctrine – Page 516)

    “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy…”
    (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young – 11:269)

    “Adam was made from the dust of an earth, but not the dust of this earth”.
    (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young – 3:319)

    “And after the flood we are told that the curse(black skin) that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Hams’ wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representative upon the earth as well as God.” (Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses – Vol. 22, Page 304)

    I could go on and on but I will just leave you with this… Will you hit your knees and ask the Jesus of the Bible if He would really be the author of such confusion? Ask Him if He would command His Prophets to marry multiple women (and teenage girls) when His Word states that marriage is between one man and one woman. Would He tell Husbands to love their wife as He loved the church and gave Himself up for her, then cause them to hurt their wife/wives with feelings of betrayal, jealousy, and depression? Would He ever tell His children to swear blood oaths that result in slit throats and disembowelment if the oath is revealed? Would He, Who is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow change His mind so many times and especially because of “laws of the land” or “civil rights issues”? (Polygamy and Blacks holding the priesthood) Would He have His apostles write the New Testament with numerous refrences to people searching the scriptures to see if the apostles were speaking the truth, then expect us today to just believe one man’s testimony with no proof or evidence to back it up?
    P.S. “Church” means the Body of Believers in Christ…

    • manxmandan July 17, 2012 at 12:26 pm #

      Camden,

      I personally see the ‘falling down’ to be a cultural expression either of the people themselves (e.g. they dramatically fall to the earth, similar to how modern born again christians do when apparently overcome by the Holy Spirit), or that the language used when recording the events of the Book of Mormon simply used this phrase to imply something.

      On your other comments, I have to say you surprised me. It does sound like an unfortunate upbringing if your parents denied you the opportunity to read the Bible. My upbringing contrasted this, as I was freely permitted to study whatever I liked, and that including reading books written by anti-mormons and ex-mormons who were intent on telling me just why the LDS church was not true. I think that perhaps, had you been provided with sufficient knowledge of the Bible, you would have been able to better handle the scriptures you mention – that have wrongly given you the impression that these contradict the LDS churches doctrines.

      Just on that note, I should point out that the novel “Mormon Doctrine” is not Mormon Doctrine. It is merely, a book.. with a great amount of fiction.

      Responding to your other points:

      “Ask Him if He would command His Prophets to marry multiple women (and teenage girls) when His Word states that marriage is between one man and one woman.”

      Do you mean prophets like Jacob, Moses, Abraham…? They were all polygamists.

      “Would He tell Husbands to love their wife as He loved the church and gave Himself up for her, then cause them to hurt their wife/wives with feelings of betrayal, jealousy, and depression?”

      I assume you are referring to polygamy again, but I wonder if you have considered the issue with the 4 wives of Jacob?

      “Would He ever tell His children to swear blood oaths that result in slit throats and disembowelment if the oath is revealed?”

      Not sure what the problem is here. He did after all ask a certain biblical prophet to slaughter his only son on an alter…

      “Would He, Who is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow change His mind so many times and especially because of “laws of the land” or “civil rights issues”? (Polygamy and Blacks holding the priesthood)”

      Ah, so this never changing God has consistently denied the Gentiles from receiving the gospel.. hasn’t he? – no, he made a major change there. What of the Law of Moses? – done away with completely.

      “Would He have His apostles write the New Testament with numerous refrences to people searching the scriptures to see if the apostles were speaking the truth, then expect us today to just believe one man’s testimony with no proof or evidence to back it up?”

      There is plenty of evidence to back up the Book of Mormon. The greatest of all however is the Spirit, and God definately wants us to seek that witness.

      I think you have shown a lack of understanding on a number of points. Perhaps you ought to return to the Book of Mormon and give it another go…

    • CamdenC July 17, 2012 at 6:51 pm #

      Manxmandan

      First of all, thank you for the reply, though your final comment is a little condescending…

      If you are referring to the practice of being “slain in the Spirit”, then that I do not believe in. Not all that say, “Lord, Lord” will be welcomed into heaven.

      It’s not that my parents denied me the oppurtunity to read the Bible, it’s just that the 3 in 1 was more emphasized and the Bible was used more in reference to the 4 Gospels and some of the epistles (mainly James).

      I am surprised to hear you say that the LDS approved book, “Mormon Doctrine” is a novel and full of fiction. You do know that an apostle of the church wrote that, right? It is a glossary of all things spiritual and temporal. While I researching the religion I believed in, I used my grandmother’s 1966 edition of the book. My grandmother was born to Mormon parents in 1907 and grew up in SLC, she didn’t think it was fiction. She had it in her library right next to Journal of Discourses and History of the Church.
      The church has never renounced that work, and in fact many other apostles and prophets have endorsed it. Nowadays, the church is trying to distance themselves from that very informative book because it explains and gives insight into exactly what “Mormon doctrine” is and how the LDS church views God, the world, heaven, marriage, atonement, blacks (the book was revised in 1978 to now say that the blacks could hold the priesthood), etc. The LDS church has become, in recent years, more “seeker friendly” and don’t even want to talk about the “heretical teachings” and “odd ideals”.

      God did NOT “command” His prophets to be polygamists… in fact, the only reason Abraham could’ve been considered a polygamist is because he “got tired” of waiting on God to provide him a son and he listened to Sarah to take Hagar so that she could bear him a son… That was a grievous sin and the result was Ishmael. “And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him… Gen. 16:12. Just because prophets or kings have taken multiple wives, doesn’t mean that God condoned it. He may have allowed it, but with it came consequences… David and Solomon had much turmoil because of their unrighteous unions with wives subsequent to the “wife of their youth”. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be cleaved to his wife, and the 2 shall become one flesh”. Nowhere does it say the 5 shall be one flesh… I am to treat my wife like she is the only woman in the world that has my full and undivided love and adoration.

      As for Jacob… well isn’t that a family fraught with deception and sin… Jacob got tricked by Laban and unknowingly married Leah. Than he got to marry Rachel after another 7 years of servitude to Laban. Jacob loved Rachel more than Leah (doubt he ever truly loved Leah, as his heart was set on Rachel from the beginning) and Leah felt hated. Rachel was barren, so just like Sarah, she gave Jacob her handmaiden Bilhah. Leah, then took it upon herself to give Jacob her handmaiden Zilpah so that Leah could have more children to raise… “Like sands in the hourglass, so are the days of our lives”. That is all man’s doing, and not from a Holy God…

      The sacrafice of Isaac was a test for Abraham and a shadow of things to come when Jesus was crucified on that same mountain… It gave us that wonderful verse, “God will provide Himself a Lamb for the burnt offering”.
      Before that situation, Abraham took it upon himself to give up his wife to another man, not something that God told him to do… Man’s sin nature causes him to do things that go against God.

      Sticking on the subject of Abraham… it has always been God’s plan that all who would believe would be saved. He told Abraham that all the peoples of the world would be blessed through his seed. The lineage of the Messiah would start with Isaac and continue through David… Both men of great failures and sin… but even though they failed, they always sought God for forgiveness. He set the Jews apart from the others to preserve His law and so that the Anoited One would be born in that line.

      True, the Spirit will reveal Truth to those who seek it. But just having a feeling that something is true isn’t good enough. Feelings are subjective and change with moods. When the Holy Spirit truly convicts someone, they will be able to understand and accept the truth. The truth is that people didn’t always take somebody’s word as the truth, but they searched the OT scriptures to see if what that person was saying truly lined up with God’s teachings, found in the Word.

      Finally, I will never return to the Book of Mormon, unless it is in a reference type capacity. I do not believe the B of M to be the Word of God… except one verse, “Truly David and Solomon had many wives, which was an abomination before the Lord”… and don’t try to reason it away with Jacob 2:30, So sometimes it is ok with God and other times it is not ok with God?… Joseph Smith made fun of my God so I can say, your God is what they call politicians when they switch back and forth between beliefs or ideals… a “waffler”.

    • lifeafterministry July 18, 2012 at 5:55 pm #

      Dear “max”;

      I understand and can fully appreciate the deep passion Mormon people have in their need to defend Mormonism. I remember that “feeling” very well indeed.
      What we strongly encourage Mormon people to do is try and not rely upon that “feeling”. As Camden mentioned above, feelings come and go with the wind so how can you rely upon something so fleeting?
      Also –
      On this blog our rules are pretty basic so please refrain from the following type of statements you made at the end of your last entry which says;
      “I think you have shown a lack of understanding on a number of points. Perhaps you ought to return to the Book of Mormon and give it another go…..”
      Neither Camden nor any of the other people who comment here or write articles are exhibiting a lack of understanding.
      In America and on this blog it’s referred to as differing opinions. Being Mormon I’m sure you’re very patriotic and have heard of the “melting pot of America”? To say someone has a lack of understanding is to imply they’ve not done homework either because they can’t or won’t. Either way this isn’t the case here.
      Most of those who comment here are either very well versed in the Bible and/or Mormonism. Having a different opinion isn’t having a lack of understanding. You’re exhibiting emotional behavior that wants immediate retaliation instead of an intellectually honest discussion based on facts. Please refrain from personal attacks. If you have any questions there’s a tab on our home page listing the rules for commenting on our blog.
      Michelle

    • manxmandan July 19, 2012 at 1:05 pm #

      Camden,

      You say you had opportunity to study the Bible, but you also stated:

      “I heard for the first time in my 26 years of life as a Mormon, verses 8 and 9 in Ephesians chapter 2”.

      So in 26 years, you never read a straight forward verse in the Bible, and one that evangelical christians quote a lot. Forgive me for thinking that if this was the manner of your study, that you were also lacking in study of the Book of Mormon.

      Regarding the novel “Mormon Doctrine”, yes I do know plenty about it. I also know that much of it has been subsequently withdrawn.. for example, Bruce McConkie later acknowledged that his views on Black’s was totally wrong.

      On the topic of Polygamy, it was interesting to read how you claim that the prophets merely sinned against God in marrying more than one wife. I find that surprising. You may find this to be of interest: http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/exegesis/god-said-he-gave-wives/

      Lastly, I do wonder how you know the Bible is true? You can account for the lands.. but atheists will provide that evidence. What is it that makes you believe it is spiritually true?

    • thegardensofboxwoodmanor July 19, 2012 at 7:01 pm #

      MAX-
      You can read the TESTAMONIES here as see how the Biblical God called each of the ex-Mormorms to Him. There was a deep longing to know the real God, repentance, and seaching the Bible. Through the Bible, God’s Holy Word, the Triune God of Christianity speaks. The Biblical Holy Spirit seaches the heart and sees the person’s longing then speaks through the Word. The person knows that this is the truth.

      Each person in the world must hear or read the Bible with an open heart through the Biblical God and His power. No one can come to him by his own reason or strength but each is called by the Biblical God. Sometimes God uses another Christian, a verse heard in a Christian church, an experience of life (car accident, etc.) or some other action to call each of us. Only when the Biblical Holy Spririt sees that our heart is open, does God reveal Himself.

      If you are trying to reason on all these miniscule points, it won’t happen. Pick up the Bible and read the New Testament starting at Matthew. Ask God to lead you through the readings. Repent of the sin of Mormonism, asking Him to show you the Truth. Then the Truth will set you free, the Bible says. Fith and belief in the Triune God of the Bible follows

      Read more testamonies and you will see how God persoally called each ex-Mormon out of LDS bondage. There is nothing you can ever do do to gain Salvation. This free gift will only be yours by reading the Bible, repentance, and belief in the Biblical God.

      We pray that God will call you through His Word.

  3. Listen July 15, 2012 at 8:32 pm #

    Why do ex-Mormons use the Holy Book of Mormon to slander Mormons when it is the prophesied record that would confirm the Bible??? Anyone criticizing the Book of Mormon unjustly does it to the Bible. STOP tearing down the Second Witness of the birth, death, and resurrection of our Lord.

    If you want to criticize Mormons, use the D&C and save your soul from condemnation. Show me a single unchristian verse in that holy book! Show me one place where it fails to preach repentance, holy living, forgiveness, resurrection, and Jesus crucified!!

    Can you explain why the BoM has MORE references to Jesus than the Bible? Where pray tell did Joe plagiarize the preaching from?? Pathetic, you who cannot discern turth; you WILL be judged by Mormon and the twelve American disciples and Jesus himself for being too stupid, too blinded, to see the simple gospel therein taught.

    • lifeafterministry July 15, 2012 at 9:47 pm #

      Dear Listen –

      I’m sorry if you think I’ve slandered Mormons. I’d do no such thing. I love the Mormon people dearly, thus my blog and website to share the truth.
      The entire Bible points to and speaks of Jesus so I don’t understand the accusation of the BoM talking about Jesus more than the Bible does.
      If you feel that we’ve misrepresented or lied about anything on any of the websites I produce, please be specific and give exact locations of the infraction/s and I’ll take care of it immediately and publicly apologize.
      Joseph Smith plagiarized several chapters from the book of Isaiah that is clearly in the Book of Mormon.
      Where in the Bible does it say that people who don’t agree with the Book of Mormon will be judged by Mormon and the 12 “American disciples”?
      Where in the Bible does it prophesy the Book of Mormon would confirm the Bible?
      The Book of Mormon actually denounces the Bible when it says there’s no need to think anyone would need just the Bible.
      The Bible clearly says in Galatians 1:6-9 and 1 Cor. 15:1-4 that if anyone, including an angel, presents or proclaims any other gospels other than that which was preached by those who presented it then they are accursed and not to listen to the deceiver.
      I know Mormons love Jesus in their heart. I used to think this way as well. The problem is that it’s the wrong Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible and the Jesus of Mormonism are not the same Christ.
      Know that we’re praying for you and hope to hear from you soon.
      With Love in Christ;
      Michelle
      1 Cor. 1:18

    • manxmandan July 17, 2012 at 12:30 pm #

      Lifeafterministry,

      You say “I’m sorry if you think I’ve slandered Mormons. I’d do no such thing.”

      However, I have to point out to you, that this blog tells another story. On the right hand side, I can see an image under the heading “Mitt Romney 2012”. It says quite clearly:

      “Would You Vote For A Mormon?”

      “..can we trust the moral integrity of a Mormon..”

      So what you are saying is, Mormon’s are without moral integrity. Is that not slander? You say Mormons are a cult. You say Mormons are going to burn in hell.. you ask “would you vote for someone who believes Jesus & Lucifer are brothers?”

      ..and yet you claim you are not slandering mormons… okay.. right..

    • CamdenC July 16, 2012 at 7:50 pm #

      Dear Listen – 1st of all, the Bible doesn’t need any help from other books… it stands alone by itself as the inerrent, perfect, and holy Word of God.
      Secondly, only if someone criticizes the chapters of Isaiah found in the B of M, would someone be criticizing the Bible. (and of course wherever else the B of M takes from the Bible “O wretched man that I am”)
      Thirdly, the birth, the death, and resurrection of our Lord doesn’t need a “Second Witness” as Hebrews chapter one tells us that in times past, God spoke to us through the prophets, but in these last days, He has spoken to us through His Son, Jesus Christ. The Bible is all we need for understanding His birth, ministry, sacrifice, finished work, resurection, and returning. It is all we need as our guide to eternal life. “Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Him. It is sooo simple. Confess Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that He rose from the dead, and you will be saved. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength… and love your neighbor as yourself = 2 greatest commandments.

      B.I.B.L.E.
      Basic
      Instructions
      Before
      Leaving
      Earth

      Fourthly, I am confused… are you saying to criticize the D&C instead of the B of M and my soul will be saved from condemnation? Then you ask us to show you a single unchristian verse in “that holy book”… Are you talking about the B of M or D&C? Because I can show you unchristian verses in both of those books and the P of GP.

      Fifthly – As Michelle states below, of course there are more references to the NAME of Jesus in the B of M than in the Bible… Jesus had already been identified by the Greek New Testament name, “Iesous” (Pronounced ee-sos) in the Latin “Iesus” (Pronounced ya-soos), which eventually got spelled and pronounced “Jesus” in English, by the time the B of M was written.

      Starting in Chapter 3 of Genesis, “the Anointed One” is found throughout the Old Testament… In fact, I can witness to Jewish people about Jesus using their Old Testament. That is how the “one and only” 12 disciples witnessed to the Jews and Gentiles of the 1st century, through the Old Testament. The OT doesn’t mention the Name Jesus because a.) Jesus is a Greek name and b.) His Name (had they known it) would’ve been Joshua or “Yeshua” in the Hebrew language, (only when the angel told Mary what she should call him, did anyone on earth know His name.And Mary, being a young Hebrew girl, would’ve named Him Yeshua “for He will save His people from their sins”)

      Sixthly, Satan has used the Word of God against people since he deceived Adam and Even in the Garden of Eden. Obviously he tried to use it against Jesus while He was in the wilderness. Satan is a master of deception and the father of all lies. Satan can also disquise himself as an “angel of light” (2 Cor. 11:14). Satan’s tactic, just like his tactic with Balam in the OT, is to infiltrate the ranks of the church (body of believers) and fire his slings and arrows of doubt, false doctrines, and heresies.
      Probably the B of M was written with the help of the occult and a book called “View of the Hebrews” (go ahead and “Google” that one, it’s a book about the Native Americans descended from the lost 10 tribes of Israel… sound familiar? DNA evidence proves that the Native Americans are descended from Eastern Asian peoples, not Hebrews)

      And finally, I look back on my 26 years as a Mormon and think, “How pathetic I was to believe that I was better than Black people because I was White”. “How pathetic I was to be so full of PRIDE to believe and think that anyone not in the LDS church was lost and not going to the celestial kingdom”. “How pathetic I was to believe that anything or anyone besides Jesus could determine my eternal destiny”. I know I will be judged by Jesus, but not how you think I will There are 2 kinds of judgements; 1.) The kind a criminal gets from a judge, and 2.) The kind an athlete gets in the olympic games. I will be judged on how and what I did to win souls to the Kingdom… I WILL NOT be judged as a criminal because I am righteous through the Blood of Christ, “What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the Blood of Jesus”. I am justified through faith in Him, believing in His finished work on the cross, when He said “It is finished” (a more correct translation is, “Paid in full”.)

      The LDS church teaches that the Bible can only be trusted “as far as it is translated correctly”, and that the B of M is the most perfect book ever written… it is on you and the LDS church to prove the Book of Mormon’s authenticity. I can prove the validity of the Bible, we are supposed to believe the B of M because Joseph Smith said it was true?

  4. thegardensofboxwoodmanor July 16, 2012 at 9:48 pm #

    Defining, “unerring ,true, infallible Word of God”, we are referring to the languages that this Word, the Bible, was given to us. Those are: Hebrew, Greek, and Aramatic. Since NO translation of the Bible is perfect, we always go back to the ORIGINAL language. That is what we mean by “unerring, true, infallable Word of God. This is how the traditional, orthodox Christian church can be sure. (I was asked which translation to use by someone and asked a theologin about this.)

    There is nothing in these 3 languages, archeology, history, or the Bible itself that even refers to the BOM. It’s all made up…

  5. CamdenC July 19, 2012 at 9:48 pm #

    “Max” – I just logged on a little while ago but have to leave my desktop here in a little bit. I will get back with you tomorrow…

  6. CamdenC July 20, 2012 at 9:37 pm #

    “max” – Please forgive me for the time delay in my response to your post. I do want you to know that it is a blessing being able to converse with you in a civil way. I have been on another site elsewhere on the web being berrated and called names by a couple of LDS members… to the point of harrassment. I never want it to get that bad and I tried to reason with them that I was trying to have a discussion with them but they insisted on telling me I was a “devil” and my father was Satan. They called me a “jack—“, a “silly—“, a “knucklehead” a “liar”, an “idiot”, and said that I was full of “bs”. They tried to justify their words by saying that the Lord got pretty tough with the Pharisees in the New Testament… but guess what? He is God, He can do whatever He wants. He can talk to His creation as He pleases. Now, Jesus told us that the evidence to the world that we are His disciples is that we have love for one another. That we are kind to and pray for our enemies. I tried the “a gentle answers turneth away wrath” back to them, but only got accused of being “holier than thou” and told that I didn’t care about the Mormon people. Most of my family is Mormon, most of my childhood/school friends are Mormon. The Lord tells me in His Word that I am to Love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength… and to Love my neighbor as myself.
    I have been feeling a little sad the last two days because I feel bad for the millions of other Mormons in the world that can be civil and have an open discussion about the differences between Biblical Christianity and Mormonism, because unfortunately many people will probably view the “discussion” I had with those two and think that Mormons are mean and vindictive.

    As for our discussion… as I mentioned before, we used the Bible but mostly stayed in the Gospels, and didn’t study Ephesians unless it was the “Armor of God”. I am not sure how old you are or how long you have been a member, but I was a member during the 70′, 80’s and first 1/2 of the 90’s… so things may have changed. I know that the church has become more “seeker friendly” as of late and have put more emphasis on the Bible. Though, they haven’t changed the 8th Article of Faith because they still teach and believe “the Bible is the Word of God, as far as it is translated correctly”.

    There were many verses that we had to memorize or that were included in Sacrament meeting “talks” that are “popular” evangelical verses. I just had never heard that verse… I do remember my dad ridiculing the people holding up the “John 3:16” signs at the football games on TV. Because they were not “true” Christians, they didn’t have the authority to proclaim that verse. And that they believed that salvation is as easy as believing that Jesus was all that was needed. John 3:16 wasn’t emphasized that much (at least in the Ward I was in). We didn’t really have a “Verse” that stood out… I don’t know, what verses do they hold up at BYU football games?

    I clicked on that link you posted… There is some kooky stuff on that site and some of the stuff seems like a stretch when it comes to “one” wife verses “first” wife. “First” wife can mean that they didn’t want anybody to be a bishop, deacon, or elder that had been divorced and then re-married. That site is set up by some group that wants to bring polygamy to Christian churches… God’s design is one man and one woman.

    Lastly, I believe that the lands, archealogical finds, and history of the Jewish peoples only re-affirms my conviction of the Truth of the Bible. The Bible is a love letter from God to us. The 100’s of prophecies that have come true in the Bible also confirms that we can trust it as the Word of God. All scripture is God breathed. There is power in the written (logos) word of God. When the written Word is spoken (rama) there is evidence of its power to convict the world of sin and turn the most wretched of sinners to a believing faith and salvation.
    FAITH COMES BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD. Romans 10:17
    The ability to believe is not determined by how i feel when i pray but by the knowledge of truth found in the word of Christ. Truth is objective, unbiased. Feelings are subjective. Knowledge of truth is critical. Acts 17:2,3.

    I will be away from the computer for a couple of days… I will check back Monday. Thank you and may God richly bless you! Romans 15:13

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