Mormon Dilemmas 7
Atonement for Sin
This is what breaks our hearts here at the ministry. One character marker we see time and again with the Mormon people is anger. Dr. Walter Martin once said that the lies piled upon the soul of the Mormon people cause frustration and anger. They’re usually argumentative and have been trained to provoke the anger in you to take away their guilt. This gives them a reason to verbally attack.
Pray for them.
The following example taken from Doctrines of Salvation is a good example of how the Church confuses its members and obviously causes quite the dilemma.
Doctrines of Salvation 1:130; “We speak of the passion of Jesus Christ. A great many people have an idea that when he was on the cross, and nails were driven into his hands and feet, that was his great suffering. His great suffering was before he ever was placed upon the cross. It was in the Garden of Gethsemane that the blood oozed from the pores of his body…” – Joseph Fielding Smith
Two pages later they said this;
Doctrines of Salvation 1:132; “…For what he has done, we should never fail him. He bought us with a price, the price of his great suffering and the spilling of his blood in sacrifice on the cross.”
And then three pages later they said this;
Doctrines of Salvation 1:135; “Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.”
Hebrews 9:28; “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
The state of Utah is unique in the sense that they are the only state in the Union which allows a convicted murderer on death row to choose the way they want to be executed. Their choices: lethal injection and firing squad. There are 5 people sitting on death row in Bluffdale, Utah awaiting execution by firing squad. In June 2010 there will be four men left. A man by the last name of Gardner will be executed for murdering a court bailiff while trying to escape during a sentencing hearing for another murder he committed.
Update: Gardner was indeed executed by firing squad and he was indeed a Mormon. How sad for this man to have lived a life of crime and then in the end not even know the difference between grace and the lies of the Mormon Church.
I agree that anger can be a response from many LDS. I would however point out that it is usually short lived, and for the time that it does manifest it is generally justified.
Remember Christ was angry at the money changers who profaned the sacred temple.
The LDS members generally only respond in anger when people misrepresent their faith for the intent of destroying its character. I think anyone has the right to be angry when such a character attack is made.
Eample: This very blog. It is a complete misrepresentation of doctrine, which is used to try and confuse the reader as to the truth of LDS faith, which the vast majority of members would see through in a second.
Christ’s greatest suffering was in the Garden of Gethsemany, as is stated, but it was not until his death on the Cross that the work was complete and the debt of sin had been paid.
As to the idea of of certain sins requiring more on our part, as it states this is taught in the Bible, so it is not a great dilemma.
Returning the point on anger, no LDS member would ever feel anger in a sociable and curteous debate. I have had many a religious discussion with my friends, and even occassionally with total strangers, and I have never reacted in anger as long as they were curteous in their comments.
This blog isn’t a “complete misrepresentation of doctrine”, but rather it puts Mormon doctrine into simple English for all to understand. We’re not going to withhold information or wait give out the next bit of information about Mormon Doctrine when we feel like it as Mormon Church does. We lay out the whole thing for all to see so they can do their own research and decide for themselves if Mormonism is just another Christian religion or if it’s a cult leading many in the opposite direction of where they want to go.
You can say what you want about the blog but one thing’s for certain we’re not afraid to lay out the whole Mormon gospel for someone to read. We’re not scared to tell someone what goes on in the temple, what Mormonism really teaches about polygamy, or about what it’s doctrine on the nature of God.
These are things an investigator will never receive a straight answer too when conversing with a Mormon. Your religion as taught you to fear these questions and instead of giving an honest answer you’re too “answer the question they should have asked” as Mr. Bob Millet has taught or to simply dodge the question by saying “I don’t know that we teach that”, as your past prophet has done.
The beautiful thing about the real gospel of Jesus Christ is that it’s simple and easy for all to understand. As a Christian my salvation isn’t null and void if I don’t receive more “light and knowledge”. I don’t have to wait for someone to tell me the next big piece of knowledge that’s contingent for my salvation.
Like it or not we speak the truth about Mormonism, how it’s not Christian, and how eternal life (living with God) only comes through Jesus alone.
Amen!
Quite obviously you don’t present LDS doctrine, as I have shown.
Simply put, in this particular blog you have tried to represent the doctrine as contradictory by using two different quotes, both of which were speaking of different things.
If you were serious about showing the whole truth of LDS doctrine you would have pointed out exactly what I did. The fact that you didn’t shows either a lack of understanding (which means you are preaching ignorantly, or trying to be a blind leader of the blind) or you are willfullyy being deceptive in your methods because you know that the simple truth would not scare people away as nicely as your false representation.
You again misrepresent the church in the often used, though blatently false accuasation concerning the teaching of doctrine, or the answering of questions. I know the answers to the very questions you pose, and if a person is honestly seeking to understand these things I am always willing to explain it to them. The church has not taught me to be scared of anything, but to bolding speak the truth, fearing nothing that the enemies of truth can devise.
Another misrepresentation is made in your statement that “As a Christian my salvation isn’t null and void if I don’t receive more “light and knowledge.” This is obviously said to indicate that the LDS believe salvation is made null and void in this way, and this is completely false. Receiving more understanding and knowledge is not a requirement for the Celestial Kingdom or Exaltation. It is only a good suggestion.
And we do not have to wait for someone else to tell us anything, but can actively seek all knowledge through personal revelation and study.
You claim to speak the truth about mormonism, but your own words show that you speak anything but the truth.
Encyclopedia of Mormonism, pg. 799, “Latter-day Saints believe that certain forms of knowledge are essential for salvation and eternal life (John 17:3). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity,” and thus human beings have a need for “revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God” (TPJS, p. 217).”
Shem,
When I first joined Mormonism I knew nothing of the Masonic temple rites I would have to participate in, nor did I know I would have to strip down with only a “shield” covering my unclothed body while women “anointed” parts of my body with oil. According to Mormonism both the endowment and initiatory ceremonies are vital to someone’s ability to live with God when they die. No one who joins Mormonism knows the details of these ceremonies that are important to their eternal life until after they’ve been through it.
The only reason you say we misrepresent Mormonism is because we’re not willing to compromise and just see the good things in Mormonism while ignoring all the horribly bad things. You can stomp your feet and pout all you want about how unfair this blog is to Mormonism. We’ll still be sharing the truth about your religion you’re not willing to divulge and leading people to the REAL Jesus Christ.
Melissa
I am not going to discuss temple ceremonies on a public thread. They are sacred and should not be trifled with.
However, I will say that from the time I was about ten years old I understood that there were similarities between the masonic rites and the temple ceremony. Joseph Smith has stated that the masonic rites are a corrupted form of the ceremony as it was had in the past.
As to all the horrible things, I yet to see one things accurately portrayed by this blog that is really horrible. It is only horrible in your mind. These things are a matter of perspective.
As to the quote from Joseph Smith, I agree that a person cannot be saved in ignorance, so a certain amount of knowledge is required. Christ himself stated that Eternal Life is the know (or have a knowledge of) God the Father.
It is also true that if one does not seek out knowledge their potential for falling from the faith is greater than one who seeks and learns the truth.
However, Joseph Smith also said that full knowledge and salvation will not come until after this life, but that we will continue to learn and grow in the next life until we reach perfect. Thus, as the scriptures say “Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.” (D&C 130: 18-19)
We will attain full salvation only when we have reached the height of knowledge, but we do not have to do so in this life. Once a man has passed this life and received his exaltation he will continue to grow until he attains to that perfect salvation, and thus we are saved only as fast as we learn and gain this knowledge; and this is why those who gain more in this life will have the advantage in the next, for they will have less to learn before attaining that true perfection.
Once we have been baptized and been through the temple we have learned all that is required for our salvation, and need no more to rise with the just when Christ returns. But if we do continue to learn we will protect ourselves the better from Satan, and have the advantage later.
This is the LDS doctrine; not the twisted ideas taken from a single quote.
In other words – this is another form of reincarnation for those who read our blog and want to stay anonymous. You or Smith can call it whatever you want but in reality it is what it is – reincarnation. In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus said that once you’re dead it’s over.
There you go again with the misrepresentations of our doctrine and the twisting of my words.
Reincarnation is the belief that the basic inelligence is immortal and at death is simply reborn into a new mortal body (which can be of any form of life).
This bares absolutley no resemblance to what I am talking about. The intelligence is immortal, but it will never inhabit any other body than the one it is given upon its conception. That body will eventually be perfected and glorified but it will remain the same body.
As to Luke 16: 19-31, I could argue your assertion as to the meaning of this parable; however, such would be pointless. As shown by yuor attempt to misguide people is you very poorly made comparrison to reincarnation yuo have no real interest in knowing or showing true LDS doctrine, which is my entire point. As such, having corrected your misrepresentations of LDS doctrine I will ignore your interpretations of the Bible.
I have to correct something. I said that reincarnation bares no resemblence to what I am talking about, but then I actually show this to be false.
There is a resemblence, but it is superficial and slight, thus making the assertian that what I am talking about is the same thing ridiculous.