Mormon Dilemma 88

27 October

Adam & Eve Praise God for Their Sin

Moses 5:11; And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Genesis 3:9-16; And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

When was the last time, if ever, you’ve been proud of and praised God for your sin?

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9 Responses to “Mormon Dilemma 88”

  1. shematwater October 29, 2011 at 5:52 pm #

    Where in Genesis does it call it a sin?

    Of course this is, again, only a dilemma from the perspective of the rest of Christianity. It is not, nor will it ever be, a dilemma for those who believe the true gospel, as taught by the LDS church.

    • discoveringgrace October 29, 2011 at 6:32 pm #

      So you don’t believe disobeying God is a sin Shem? I really hate how Mormonism makes God out to be some kind of trickster wagging his finger at Adam and Eve saying “don’t eat of the tree”, and then wanting them to disobey so all his spirit kids can get physical bodies. But thankfully the “true” gospel is Jesus Christ isn’t the “true” Mormon gospel taught in the Mormon Church.

  2. shematwater October 31, 2011 at 8:26 pm #

    Disobeying is a sin only if one understands what disobeying is. The Bible tells us that Adam and Eve did not understand what good and evil were before the fall, and as such they were not truly capable of sinning, for they could not truly exercise agency.

    I agree it was a bit of a set-up, but it was a necessary set-up. It was in no way a deception, however, and thus not a trick, and this term implies deception.

    Personally, I prefer a God who knows enough that he would not let such a vital event in history be completely out of his control. No other church can truly explain the events of the Garden and the Fall without contracting themselves in some way. You may not like what we teach, but at least it is consistent.

  3. CamdenC November 1, 2011 at 3:05 am #

    Shem-

    They must’ve had agency since they exercised “their will” and not “God’s will” (“Do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”) when they knowingly went against God’s command to not eat of that tree.

    In your theology, you called it a “necessary set-up”. Why would it be a necessary set-up[ We (the human race) were designed to commune with God and to have fellowship with Him. He walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden. That fellowship was broken when they knowingly went against His command, thus requiring that a Savior pay for all of mankinds sins. God said to the serpent, “I will put enmity between you and the woman’s seed” in Genesis 3. Of course God knows the beginning from the end and He knew everything would happen the way it did. God’s desire is that we have fellowship with Him, that fellowship was broken when sin entered the world.

    Here’s a good question, Do you believe that there weren’t any “relations” and/or children before the fall?

    Since LDS teachings say that Adam and Eve didn’t have sex until after the fall (because they realized they were naked), why would God tell them in Genesis 1:28 to “be fruitful and multiply” if they hadn’t yet “had their eyes opened”.

    Would God tell His creation to do something if they didn’t have any idea how to do it?

    If, according to LDS teachings, they hadn’t had relations yet or children, why would they be shameful of their nakedness if they were the only two humans on earth?

  4. shematwater November 1, 2011 at 9:34 pm #

    CAMDEN

    All good questions, and all easily answered.

    First, speaking of agency I stand by what I said. Agency is not merely the power to make a choice, the understanding of what making that choice entails. To truly have agency we need four things. 1 – the power to choose, which they had; 2 – opposition, thus a choice to be made, which they also had in what to eat; 3 – laws that tell us which choice is the right choice; which God provided; and 4 – the knowledge of good and evil, or an understanding of why one choice is good and another bad; which the Bible tells us they did not have. As they were not in possession of all these things they could not truly exercise agency.

    Now, you state that “God’s desire is that we have fellowship with Him.” I agree. My question is then, why did he ever put the tree in the garden to begin with, and why did he give the command not to eat of it? If his only goal was fellowship with us he could have avoided the Fall by simply not having the tree or the command. So why did he have both?

    You ask “Do you believe that there weren’t any “relations” and/or children before the fall?”
    Answer: As to relations, I really can’t say. However, I do believe they never had children, as scriptures tell us this is true.

    You asked “why would God tell them in Genesis 1:28 to “be fruitful and multiply” if they hadn’t yet “had their eyes opened”
    Answer: To give different choices. People like to see this as a simple event that happens in a moment. The Fall is much more complex than that, as are Adam and Eve’s psychology. I take what I am about to say from LDS scripture (but since we are discussing LDS doctrine I am sure you won’t mind).
    Adam was a man who obeyed without question. God said “don’t eat of the tree” and he didn’t. We read in 1 Timothy 2: 14 that Adam was not deceived, and that it was in Eve that the Transgression was committed. So, Adam was tempted of Satan, but he refused. Eve on the other hand submitted to the temptation.
    Eve, on the other hand, was of a curious nature. We can see that she wanted what the serpent said she would get from eating, and that the fruit itself was enticing.
    What did God do? He gave one command, thou shalt not eat of the tree. God knew that Eve, being curious, would eventually eat of the tree, and thus be driven from the Garden. On the other hand, Adam would never disobey God, but would remain in the Garden without Eve. So God gave another command; be fruitful. Thus he presents Adam with a dilemma. If he obeys in not eating the fruit how can he be fruitful. But, with Eve being driven from the Garden, how can he be fruitful and not eat of the fruit.
    Thus we see how an all knowing God was able to orchestrate the necessary fall by using the psychologies of these people against them.

    You asked “Would God tell His creation to do something if they didn’t have any idea how to do it?”
    Answer: God has done things of this nature in the scriptures. That is the point of Faith. We obey God, trusting that he will guide us into the correct paths to fulfill his commands. God knew they couldn’t have children while i the Garden, but he also knew that they would be able to after the Fall. Thus he gave the command, and (if you recall my last answer) provided the means for it to be obeyed.

    You asked: “If they hadn’t had relations yet or children, why would they be shameful of their nakedness if they were the only two humans on earth?”
    Answer: Because nakedness is a shameful thing, regardless of how many people there are. In the Genesis account there is an emphasis on the fact that they were not ashamed before they ate of the fruit, signifying that they did not understand the nature of right and wrong. However, once they ate of the fruit, and gained this knowledge, they at once realized that being naked was wrong, and were thus ashamed for all the years they had gone naked before.

  5. CamdenC November 2, 2011 at 2:45 am #

    To your question;

    (My question is then, why did he ever put the tree in the garden to begin with, and why did he give the command not to eat of it? If his only goal was fellowship with us he could have avoided the Fall by simply not having the tree or the command. So why did he have both?)

    God wants fellowship with us, but He doesn’t want “robots”. The tree was a test (which they failed).

    As to the actual act of eating the fruit…

    The Bible says that Eve partook of the fruit, and gave some to Adam who was with her… Adam let her do it, ate the fruit with her, then blamed “that woman you gave me” as his reason for disobeying.

    Perhaps they were ashamed more of their act of disobedience than their nakedness. We have a tendancy to cover one sin (disobedience) with another sin (lying). It is obvious that God was talking to them like a parent talks to a child when that parent is trying to get the truth out their child. The parent knows the truth, but they want to see if the child will tell the truth. God knows all and everything, He wouldn’t have had to have asked the questions He did.

    The Bible says that God calls out, “Adam, where are you?” Of course God knew where Adam was and knew exactly what had happened. Why are you hiding? Who told you were naked? I have actually had similar conversations (totally different subject matter, of course) with my kids. I knew exactly what they did, I just wanted to give them the chance to come clean and ask for forgiveness.

    God tells the animals to be fruitful and multiply. Then He tells Adam and Eve to do the same thing. Don’t you think that Adam and Eve saw the animals making babies and obeyed the command to multiply even before the fall?

  6. shematwater November 2, 2011 at 5:55 pm #

    CAMDEN

    The problem is that you are again assuming much in the motivation of Adam. Taking what we have in the Bible there is so little to go on. It is human nature to expect the worst, and so the little we do have is twisted into the worst case scenario.
    Adam did say that Eve ate and that was why he ate. But was this to cover up his sin, or was it to say “I wanted to stay with her, and I knew this was the only way.” Was he excusing his sin, or explaining the choice he had been forced to make because of the actions of Eve? From the Genesis account, as it stands, both are possible.

    Now, the account never actually says that Adam is with Eve when she first ate of the fruit. It merely states that after she ate she gave to Adam who ate. How much time was between her action and his is not given, but has been assumed because of the lack of detail in the account.

    As to my question, your answer does not satisfy the problem. He didn’t want robots, so he created something as a test that he knew they would fail. In essence the Fall is still a set up on the part of God, and is a result of his planning.
    What you have told me is that he wanted fellowship but deliberately created the Tree as a test, knowing full well that they would fail and thus loose that fellowship that he wanted. He has thus defeated his own purpose.

    PS Who ever said the animals were multiplying before the fall? There was no change in the Garden of Eden, and thus nothing was reproducing. Plants did grow fruit, but they never produced new plants. Animals never had offspring, and Adam and Eve had no children. It was the effect of the Fall that brought mortality, and thus the power to procreate, on the entire Earth, not just Adam and Eve.

    • lifeafterministry November 2, 2011 at 11:05 pm #

      “Animals never had offspring, and Adam and Eve had no children. It was the effect of the Fall that brought mortality, and thus the power to procreate, on the entire Earth, not just Adam and Eve.”

      Let me get this straight Shem. Are you saying disobeying God made Adam and Eve able to have sex, that their disobedience automatically gave them the knowledge they needed to know where babies came from? He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply before they disobeyed him. This tells me at least they knew what they needed to do to obey at least one of his commands.

      It always amazes me how Adam and Eve are led up as heroes in Mormonism for doing what they had to do to so that all of us could receive physical bodies. – Melissa Grimes aka discoveringgrace

  7. shematwater November 3, 2011 at 10:42 pm #

    Melissa

    I have no clue if they had sex or not; but that is truly meaningless. Able to have sex and able to bare children are different things. They may have had sex, but due to the nature of their existence it could not lead to pregnancy and offspring.
    And I don’t really know how much they knew about the process or when they learned it, but that is also irrelevant. Honesty I doubt they knew much about it before the Fall, but such would have come naturally after the Fall, and that is when we first read of Adam “knowing” Eve.

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