Mormon Dilemma 56

27 August

Qualifying for the Holy Ghost

Ensign, July 2008, pg. 29; One of the greatest blessings of membership in the Church is the opportunity to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Through virtuous living we can qualify for this divine source of guidance, which enables us to see “things as they really are, and … as they really will be” (Jacob 4:13).” – Kenneth Johnson

 

 

1 John 2:20-21; 0But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Through your works in the Church you might “qualify” to have a moment where the Mormon Holy Ghost will visit you.   How hopeful is that?  Where in the Bible does it say one must qualify for the Holy Ghost and exactly how does one do that?

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11 Responses to “Mormon Dilemma 56”

  1. shematwater August 29, 2011 at 8:41 pm #

    First, it is not just a moment where he visits, but a constant companionship in which he inspires and directs you into the best courses of action at any given time. However, just like any other companion, he can be driven away by ignoring him, or going into places, or doing things that he does not approve of.

    In truth, it is the great hope one can have, aside from the eventual exaltation that has been promised to the faithful. To have a member of the Godhead with you at all times is a great gift.

    As to the Bible, considering that John the Baptist told people to “Bring Forth fruits meet for repentance, and the gift of the Holy Ghost (or the baptism of the Holy Spirit) only comes after the Baptism of John, that in itself proves that some qualification is required.

  2. CamdenC August 31, 2011 at 1:42 am #

    I am still on the road and my computer time is limited so I am “shootin from the hip” on this one…

    Doesn’t “Mormon Doctrine” say that the Holy Ghost doesn’t tarry with men?

    Didn’t Paul or one of the 12 or a group of disciples go into a city and upon finding people already filled with the Holy Spirit say, “Let us baptize them” ?

    The act of Baptism doesn’t indwell the believer with the Holy Spirit. As described in Romans 6, Paul talks about it being a symbol of our death to sin (going under the water or “buried”) and rising up new in Christ (coming up out of the water).

    It is an outward action of an inward change. To show the world that you are proclaiming you have given your life to Jesus. Jesus said, “If you proclaim Me to men, I will proclaim you to my Father” (Paraphrased)

    When the disciples asked Jesus, “What must we do, to do the works of God?” Jesus replied, “Believe in the One that sent Me”.

  3. shematwater August 31, 2011 at 5:24 pm #

    CAMDEN

    I don’t know what you are referring to by “Mormon Doctrine” but what it seems you are talking about is what we refer to as the Power of the Holy Ghost, not the Gift.
    I think it was Peter, after the vision of the sheet and animals he went on taught the men at Jappa. They did receive an outpouring of the Holy Ghost, and Peter asked if there were any who would deny them baptism since (they being gentiles) as they had received of this power. However, this is not the gift, or the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

    Matthew 3: 11 “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”

    The baptism of the Holy Ghost is greater than, and comes after the baptism of water to repentance.

    Acts 19: 5-6 “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”

    Again, evidence that the gift of the Holy Ghost only comes after baptism for water, and thus must be qualified for. The men in this chapter had already received the baptism of water, but had not, as yet, received of the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.

    Every time the Baptism of John (or water) is mentioned it is in invariably connected with the baptism of fire which was to come after.

  4. CamdenC August 31, 2011 at 10:33 pm #

    I was referring to the book written by Bruce R. McConkie, “Mormon Doctrine”.

    Some churches use that verse in Acts to claim, “If you don’t speak in tongues, you don’t have the Holy Spirit”. Which, of course, is not true.

    I think I got Jesus’ reply wrong in the last line of my previous post;

    Jesus said, “Believe in the One whom He has sent”

    The whole gist of this Dilemna is that through virteous living, we can qualify for divine guidance. There is truly nothing that we can do to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, except to give our heart and lives to Jesus, take up our cross, and follow Him. The believer is not just filled once with the Holy Spirit, it is a continuing filling of through the renewing of our mind.

    True, we shouldn’t sin for when we do, we “drag” the Holy Spirit into the gutter with us.

  5. shematwater August 31, 2011 at 10:54 pm #

    CAMDEN

    I would ask for an actual quote from the book to explain what you mean than.

    As to the need to obey or live virtuously, again I would say that it is all through the Bible. But just going back to my previous posts it can easily be seen.

    As I have demonstrated, the continual influence of the Holy Spirit comes only after Baptism (which the Bible supports). Baptism itself must be qualified for, as John the Baptist taught us to “bring forth fruits meet for repentance.”
    Thus virtuous living is required for baptism, which is required before receiving the Holy Ghost; thus the virtuous living is required to gain the Holy Ghost.

    Again, my point is not to convince you that I am right, but to show how the argument does not truly work, especially from an LDS perspective, and is thus not a real dilemma.

  6. CamdenC August 31, 2011 at 11:22 pm #

    I don’t have my 1966 edition of Mormon Doctrine with me… Look it up under “Holy Ghost” (I think) or Google it.

    I have seen lost people at water Baptism ceremonies that are so moved by the message of salvation given by the pastor, that they fall to their knees, pour out and confess their sins, ask for God’s forgiveness and give their lives to the Lord. They take their shoes off, remove their watch and wallet, and “get dunked” in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit right there.

    There was no time for virtuous living from the moment they repented to the time they got baptized. Would you say that they have to get baptized again, after they have had time to live virteously? Then the laying on of hands to receive the gift?

    All I really know is that I got baptized in the LDS church because I turned 8 years old. I did it because that is what you did when you turned 8. I bore my testimony, got dunked, and they laid hands on me at church the next day. I felt there was more power in my CTR ring than the whole act of going through the rituals, when it came to virtuous living.

  7. shematwater September 1, 2011 at 8:00 pm #

    CAMDEN

    We are starting to mix doctrine of different religious ideas.

    First, anyone Baptized by a person who has not been properly called (like Aaron (Hebrews 5: 4) has not truly been baptized. They may have experienced the Holy Ghost, but the ordinance has no effect unless done by the proper authority.

    In the LDS church what you describe does not happen. A person may witness the ordinance, feel the spirit and desire baptism; but an interview would still be require to determine if they were ready for the ordinance, and a time would be scheduled for a future date. It is also likely that they would be asked to complete the Missionary discussions so that they understood what being baptized meant.
    These are all things that are needed. God’s house is one of order, and all things must be done in that order. Anything done outside that order will have no effect.

    I got baptized when I was eight as well, but not just because it was what you did. It was because I wanted it. I cannot say that fully understood it, though I think that many people of that age do. I was fairly spoiled however, and this prevented me from understanding a great deal until recent years. However, even with my low level of understanding I still wanted to be baptized, as I knew doing so would please God, though why I was unsure of. I also had seen several of my brothers and sisters be baptized and I witnessed the joy they felt in it, which I also wanted.

    I do understand now that the power was never in the ordinance itself. The motions have no more power than your CTR ring. It is the power coming directly from God, and being used by the one performing the ordinance. In my case it was my brother, and I can testify to the power he did and does now hold.

  8. CamdenC September 2, 2011 at 2:09 am #

    Ya, I think at 8 years old there is some understanding as to the “why” a person gets baptized. I also think it has to do with “you get baptized because you are 8 years old”…
    I too wanted to get baptized when I turned 8, it was a big deal. It was what I was taught “should” happen at that age. (I remember I was so embarrassed because I had a touch of athlete’s foot and had to wear white socks in the baptismal font. All the others baptized that day were barefoot and I was scared that people would notice my socks… how silly)

    I don’t want to get into the “called of Aaron” issue again. Tribe of Levi and all the other stuff…

    All I know is that when I publicily confessed Jesus as my Savior, asked Him to come and make me a new creation, and to fill me with the Holy Spirit… I was filled with the power to witness of Him and tell complete strangers of the Good News of His redemptive work on the cross. I was so on fire that people were telling me I should be an evangelist or a pastor…

  9. shematwater September 6, 2011 at 5:46 pm #

    CAMDEN

    I am not denying your experience, I am just differentiating it from others. The power you felt was real, and I do not doubt it. I also do not doubt the power you felt to testify of it.
    I have seen this influence in many people, and I find it to be very genuine.

    However, I have seen a much greater influence in those who have received the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and have not simple experienced his power. You have your testimony, and that is the start, but it is not the end. That is the difference.
    Once one has received this beginning they must followed the proscribed order to progress and receive of the fullness.

  10. CamdenC September 7, 2011 at 11:12 pm #

    Thank you for your response…

    I am on the road still and don’t have my computer Bible program with me… Did receiving the Holy Ghost in the Bible always involve the laying on of hands to confer the gift?

  11. shematwater September 9, 2011 at 7:39 pm #

    It depends on your understanding of what receiving the Holy Ghost is.
    If you are to take the view that any manifestation of the spirit is receiving the Holy Ghost, then no, as there are many accounts of the spirit falling on people without the laying on of hands.

    However, if you take the LDS perspective and separate the temporary manifestation of the spirit (the power) from the continual guidance of the spirit (the gift), and that receiving the Holy Ghost refers to the gift, then you would say yes.

    In truth it is a difficult question to answer, as your perspective will affect how you interpret the various verses that can be used to support either side. However, there are a few verses that I think give strong indications that the gift, or the continual guidance of the spirit, only came through the laying on of hands. Consider, for instance,

    Acts 8: 15-19
    “Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
    (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
    Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
    And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
    Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.”

    These people had been baptized, but the Holy Ghost had not fallen on them. It was not until after the apostles laid their hands on the people that the gift was given. The idea that no other way was known is proven in that Simon tried to buy the power.

    Also, Acts 19: 2-6
    “He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
    And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
    Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
    When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”

    These were strong believers who had not received of the Holy Ghost, and only received it after Paul laid his hands of them.

    These verses indicate that the gift of the Holy Ghost only came when a leader of the church Laid his hands on the people and confirmed that gift to them. Other verses indicate that almost all things were done through the Laying on of hands (callings, healings, etc.) and it is listed as a doctrine of the church (Hebrews 6: 2).

    None of this really proves anything; it is just a strong indication for it.

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