Mormon Dilemma 108
The Only True and Living Church and a Grove of Trees
Ensign, Nov. 2009, pg. 37; “If someone turns from these restored doctrines, where will he go to learn the true nature of God as taught in the grove of trees? Where will he go to find the doctrines of the premortal existence, baptism for the dead, and eternal marriage? And where will he go to find the sealing powers that can bind husbands and wives and children beyond the grave?
“Through Joseph Smith have been restored all the powers, keys, teachings, and ordinances necessary for salvation and exaltation.” – Tad R. Callister, Joseph Smith – Prophet of the Restoration
Deut. 16:21; “Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee.”
While Joseph may not have planted the grove of trees, he certainly had no business going back to that place time and again to pray to a god and set up a “sacred” place. It was in that grove of trees Smith came up with the idea of God being a risen man of flesh and bones which in turn came the other ideas of pre-mortal existence, baptisms for the dead, eternal marriage, polygamy, et al.
God wasn’t shy about letting His children know how He felt about the dangers of groves of trees and what to do about those who choose to worship in them. As a Christian it’d be hard to miss the message in the Bible that we shouldn’t be participating in these things.
Every one of those basic tenets of Mormonism is spoken about in the Bible and we’re told NOT to participate in them, they aren’t indicative of godly behavior and they’re not true. This encounter in the grove of trees should tell the Mormon people something is wrong.
You can know with certainty when the Church tells you we need to obey a principle because it’s what Joseph received in the grove, you better run the other way.
I have no clue where you are getting your information from, but it is not true (or little of it is).
I notice you mention he didn’t plant the trees. This should show clearly that you do not understand what is being said in the verse from Deut. What is being said here is a reference to pagan places of worship in which a trees were planted in specific designs, and at the center was placed an object of worship. It is not referring to a naturally growing forest.
Also, most of the doctrines you site as being developed in this grove were not even thought of until years later. The Idea of the Father being an exalted being can be shown to only have been reveal much later, simply in the fact that while still in Kirtland Joseph Smith actively taught that he was a spirit (see his Lectures on Faith). Baptism for the dead was also not revealed until after the Kirtland period, as was the eternal marriage.
I would also love to see were these specific doctrines are condemned in the Bible. I say this with confidence because I know that none of them are, and all of them are actually fully supported by the Bible.
You are really stretching on this one.
Demons have attachments to “groves of trees.” Smith’s experience proves it.
“Also, most of the doctrines you site as being developed in this grove were not even thought of until years later…” That should show you that the Mormon Church keeps changing their doctrines. What to believe?
The test of a false prophet is that what he says is NOT in agreement with the Bible. If what he said is in fact INCLUDED in the Bible, then he is a true prophet.
QUESTION AUTHORITY!
Anyone can say,” God told me…” but does it coincide with the Bible? Does Joseph Smith’s vision of Moroni coincide withe the Bible’s truths? The Word of God has not changed in centuries.
God has revealed all and not hidden or given a little at a time. Mormonism gives a little at a time, then you get to the temple, and get a little more. By that time, you are into Mormonism deeply. Mark 4:22 “…whatever is hidden, is meant to be disclosed…”
Christians not only believe in a DIFFERENT GOD but get everything up front. Are you getting all the things up front? There are NO secrets in the Christian faith. WIth a sinsere heart then, ask God to help you in your search for the Truth.
“God has revealed all and not hidden or given a little at a time.”
Really?
Isaiah 28: 10, 13 “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:”
In other words, no one has ever gotten all truth “up front,” but have received it by degrees, not gaining the deeper doctrine until they have learned and understand the basics. One does not learn Calculus until they know algebra.
Even Paul understood this, for he wrote to the Corinthians “I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.” And to the Hebrews he wrote “For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.”
Has God changed his methods? I doubt it.
God is willing to reveal all things to all people, but he will not give the meat to those who are unable to bear it. All things that are hidden from the world are made manifest to the saints (Mark 4: 24).
Shem, you’re back! Did you get the e-mail I sent you?
OKAY, I am referring to TODAY. Since you are not a Christian, you wouldn’t know. TODAY you can go into a Christian Church and find all about Christianity UP FRONT. You will not find that in a Morman Church.
Can I go in to a Morman Church and ask to go to the temple and watch the secret oaths being given? NO. But you can go into a Christian church and view any and all the Christian services, and the Sacraments being given-nothing is secret.
AND, YES, God has revealed all that He wants us to know- it’s in the Bible- nothing is secret.
Remember, Mormomism and Christianity are 2 different religions. You have a different God, a different Jesus, and a different Holy Spirit. The names are the same but the meanings are differnent.
Your way to heaven is through good works; the Christian way is not. The doctrines you have are not supported in the Bible. Baptism for the Dead? NO.
You can read all the information on this and other Chrisitan website relating to what tyou are asking.
What then is your purpose for coming here? Are you interested in knowing our Jesus and leaving the false religion that you are in? OR are you interested in refuting everything here to prove something to yourself? We are here in love because Christ commanded us to go forth to all nations and tell all about the TRUE Jesus of the Bible. We are willing to help you seek answers in your journey. We will not try to force you to believe. That has to come between our God and your by you reading HIS Word alone.
Have you sincerely asked God to show you WHO he is?
CAMDEN
No I did not get the message. What address did you send it to?
As to being back, I am not sure about that. I am pretty fed up with this blog and seriously considered ignoring this thread, but the temptation was to great.
SUE
“I am referring to TODAY”
So, you are saying that God uses different methods today than he did in the past. Why would he teach those of the past Line upon line, and yet just expect us to get it all in one fell swoop?
“Can I go in to a Morman Church and ask to go to the temple and watch the secret oaths being given? NO.”
Matthew 7: 6 “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”
God has always reserved the greatest truths for those who would not treat them lightly. In the same spirit of Line upon Line the LDS church gives only that which is necessary to bring men back to the presence of God with the guaruntee that all will be reveled when a person is ready for it.
“Your way to heaven is through good works”
You obviously don’t know our doctrine.
“The doctrines you have are not supported in the Bible.”
I have yet to see one doctrine of the LDS church that is not amply supported by the Bible.
“Baptism for the Dead? NO.”
Good example:
1 Corinthians 15: 19, 29
1 Peter 3: 19-20; 4: 6
Isaiah 24:22; 42:7; 49:9; 61:1
Zechariah 9:11
John 5: 25
Romans 14: 9
Hebrews 11: 40
“Are you interested in knowing our Jesus and leaving the false religion that you are in? Or are you interested in refuting everything here to prove something to yourself?”
Niether, as it is you who have the false religion and the false understanding of Christ, and I have never needed convincing when I know something to be true.
My purpose here is two fold. First, I enjoy it (usually, though this blog has taxed the limits of that enjoyment). And second, to dispell the false ideas that people writing blogs like this generally try to spread around regard LDS doctrine.
I have no delusion that anything I say will ever sway those who are frequent commenters, as those people are far too entranched in their beliefs to listen to anything I say. However, those who are casual readers are more likely to listen, and it is for their benefit that I post.
“Have you sincerely asked God to show you WHO he is?”
Yes, and for this reason I follow the LDS church, for they are the only ones who have any understanding of his real nature.
Shem – It was a yahoo account (don’t want to put it on the blog) that I got from Michelle because her and I were talking about, “Where has Shem been lately? I hope everything is ok with him and his family”.
Getting back to this posting… Hebrews 1: 1-2
CAMDEN
We are doing good. I raduate this May, and in two days we will be attending the temple and being sealed as a family. We are rather excited.
Speaking of this blog, the last time I posted (I can’t remember the thread) I was accused of being an oppressive husband whose only thought is to subject my wife to my depraived whims. I am sorry, but after such an insult I find it difficult to stumach the blog much.
Hebrews 1: 1-2
I think this is a beautiful passage Paul is glorying in the privilage to not only have the words of the propehts, as those before them had, but to have lived in the time when Christ himself ministered to the Earth and to have received the gospel strait from His mouth.
You will note that he never once says that prophets are no longer needed, but simply that those living at that time were privilaged to have the ministry of the Son himself to learn from, which privilage had not been given in the past.
http://www.irr.org/mit/GP-BSG-34-36-Obedience-and-Eternal-life.html
At this link, you wil find what I said in greater detail; you can contact them for futher explanations.
Camden
If you want to reach me my e-mail I would suggest putting LDS doctrine as the subject so that I don’t just erase the message as junk mail.