E-mail from a Mormon; “Why Would They Lie”

08 August

Why Would They Lie?

This article is actually an e-mail we received here at the ministry and my response.  His name is John.  The reason I’m sharing it this way is for the reader to gain an understanding of where the Mormon is coming from.  It also serves as a good example of how to witness to them.  I did not correct or change any of his e-mail so his typos are intact as well; if you’re a stickler on proper typing, please excuse this as I didn’t want to touch any of his e-mail.

Please pray for him won’t you?

Black font is John

Red font is Life After

My simple question to you is why would they lie?  Who has anything to gain?  No one in the church gets paid, in fact the missionaries pay for their own mission.  The Bishopric does dot get any portion of the tithing. I am not seeing why anyone would deceive in this.  No one would benefit.

John, I don’t believe the missionaries, bishops and ordinary members of the Church purposefully go out and lie to potential converts or the congregation.  I truly believe the average member has been lied to through the teachings and higher level leaders of the Church from one generation to the next and don’t even realize they’re lying because they’ve bought into it themselves.  I’ve seen this time and again, not only with my own family, but hundreds of other families as well.

Also, the word “Christ” is in the name.

This is what all members of the Church tell me when they write in.  I could call myself the President of the US but that doesn’t make it any truer than a church claiming to be Christian because the word “Christ” is in its title.

We spend two hours before sacriment studying gospel principles and JESUS CHRIST’S atonement. So how are we not Christian?

To be a Christian means to believe in the Jesus of the Bible.

Typically the average Mormon believes they do follow in and trust the Jesus of the Bible, but when you start digging in to determine the extent of their understanding, it proves Mormons and Christians are not worshipping the same person.

The Jesus of Mormonism is a created being who was chosen as a savior to the people on earth and is the elder spirit brother of Lucifer (Abr. 3:27-28, Jesus the Christ, pg. 8 ) instead of God incarnate as the Bible proclaims (Is. 9:6, John 1:1, 14; Col. 1:15-18).  He is not white as the BoM claims (3 Nephi 19:30), how could he be if he was born of Mary who was a Hebrew from the Middle East?

nothing the church teaches results in evil people.

I’ve never stated this.  However, this is another sign that the teachings of Mormonism and orthodox Christianity are not aligned with each other.

Christianity and the Bible teach that mankind is born into sin; therefore he is born a sinner, thus our need for a Savior who can atone for our sin (Rom. 3:23, 5:8, 12, 6:23; Job 15:14) The Bible tells us the heart of man is wicked, who can know it (Jer. 17:9).

Mormonism teaches that mankind is born perfect without sin (Moses 6:54, D&C 29:36; Best of Lowell Bennion, pg. 96; Articles of Faith, pg. 63, 80, 430; Brigham Young in Journal of Discourses 10:251-252; Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pg. 233; Doctrines of Salvation 1:104; Introduction to the Gospel, pg. 312; Miracle of Forgiveness, pg. 163; Encyclopedia of Mormonism, pg. 1315, etc.) and that not all sins are forgiven which are murder, apostasy and blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

I am just not understanding why there is website after website after website of people quick to discredit the church.  And what is the alternative?  have you seen the society out there?

Yeah I’ve seen the world out there and the alternative is JESUS!!!  Belief and trust in Jesus is what saves us, not a religion, not a bunch of ordinances, not following certain prophets.  JESUS!!

Attached is a speech I prepared for stake conference, tell me I am wrong.

Mormonism

While trying to write this speech I didn’t really have a topic in mind so I decided to write on Mormonism in general.  What does this church teach?  I looked to the internet for information on what I could say.   I found so many websites quick to tell me why I should not be a Mormon.   Many on the internet try to discourage people from believing in the teachings of Mormonism.  Incomprehensible as it may be, some people even claim that the Mormon Church is more of a cult than a religion.  Many even claim Mormons are not Christian, even though” Christ” is in this church’s name.

I’ve already addressed this.

People question what Mormons believe in about  the bible, the nature of God, where God lives, a man who talks to God, Joseph Smith,  polygamy, golden plates etc. etc. – you get the idea.  I keep coming back to the same question whenever I read the information on these sites – What do people of the church do that is so offensive to these people that they feel the need to slander?

Let me begin by stating that slandering and proclaiming the truth are two totally different things.  While there are some horrible websites out there that does engage in this type of thing, there are just as many good Christian websites that do not – mine is part of the latter.

What is so offensive is that Joseph Smith claimed he saw God who appeared to him as an exalted man and told him that no one was worshipping him.  That all of Christianity for the past 2,000 years had not been honoring God and then he wrote in the Book of Mormon that the body of Christ was the “whore of Babylon” in 1 Nephi 13:6, 14:10.  That is what is offensive as well as the following LDS teachings about Jesus and what the Bible says about Jesus.  Notice how vastly different they are:

Jesus Begotten by Holy Spirit vs. not Begotten by Holy Spirit

Teachings of Harold B. Lee, pg. 14; You asked about the birth of the Savior. Never have I talked about sexual intercourse between Deity and the mother of the Savior. If teachers were wise in speaking of this matter about which the Lord has said but very 11little, they would rest their discussion on this subject with merely the words which are recorded on this subject in Luke 1:34-35…Remember that the being who was brought about by [Mary’s] conception was a divine personage. We need not question His method to accomplish His purposes. Perhaps we would do well to remember the words of Isaiah 55:8-9: “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” Let the Lord rest His case with this declaration and wait until He sees fit to tell us more. (1/2/69).

Luke 1:35; And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Jesus Begotten through Natural Laws

Journal of Discourses 8:115-116; While brother Joseph was referring to the providences of God, I was led to reflect that there is no act, no principle, no power belonging to the Deity that is not purely philosophical. The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” – Brigham Young, Salt Lake City, July 8, 1860

John 1:34-36; And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.  35 ¶ Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples; 36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

When the Mormons use the term “after the manner of the flesh” this is what they’re referring to; God had sex with Mary.

Jesus’ Birth

Promised Messiah, pg. 468; “There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lord’s coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is just that simple.” – Bruce McConkie

Matt. 1:18; Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Why can’t they just accept the fact that what God does is always beyond our comprehension?

Jesus’ Blood not Enough

Doctrines of Salvation 1:133; The Latter-day Saints believe in the efficacy of the blood of Christ. They believe that through obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel they obtain a remission of sins; but this could not be if Christ had not died for them. If you did believe in blood atonement, I might ask you why the blood of Christ was shed, and in whose stead was it shed? I might ask you to explain the words of Paul, “Without shedding of blood is no remission.”

Hebrews 9:13-14; For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

They do not believe in the efficacy of Christ or they wouldn’t add works.  The shedding of blood was what God demanded as a covering of sins in the OT.  Jesus fulfilled that and then this promise went even further with the Unblemished Lamb of God.  Your sins aren’t just covered, they’re washed away and forgiven forever, but it’s through His blood not ours.

Jesus as Creator vs. Creation

Mormon Doctrine pg. 127; “As far as man is concerned, all things center in Christ. He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state. As such he became, under the Father, the Creator of this earth and of worlds without number; and he was then chosen to work out the infinite and eternal atonement, to come to this particular earth as the literal Son of the Father, and to put the whole plan of redemption salvation, and exaltation in operation.

Col. 1:15-17; Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

How can he be omnipotent if he had to progress to become a god?  How does he become the creator?  If he’s omnipotent why did he have to be chosen to do this work?  If he’s omnipotent how is he also the literal son of God?

Jesus Crucified for Polygamy

Journal of Discourses 1:346; The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, causing his crucifixion, was evidently based upon polygamy, according to the testimony of the philosophers who rose in that age. A belief in the doctrine of a plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus and his followers. We might almost think they were “Mormons.”” – Jedidiah Grant, Salt Lake City, August 7, 1853

Romans 4:25; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Jesus’ Death was Death of a god

Sermons…of Melvin J. Ballard, pg. 227; And One only had the power to break the bands of death, and he, the Son of God, holds the power to break the bonds of death not only for himself, but for everyone that has been born into the world. He purchased the prize, acquired the prize, by giving his own sinless life; and his death was the death of a God.

Heb. 2:14-18; Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The author of Hebrews was so eloquent in describing what took place with the crucifixion and death of Jesus.  Why the Mormons feel they have to demean Him in this manner is beyond my comprehension.

Jesus and Holy Spirit Created by God

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, pg. 548; Yet God the Father is not one in substance with the Son or the Holy Spirit, but is a separate being. The Father existed prior to the Son and the Holy Ghost and is the source of their divinity. In classical terms, LDS theology is subordinationist; that is, it views the Son and the Holy Ghost as subordinate to and dependent upon God the Eternal Father. They are his offspring. Thus Joseph Smith referred to the Father as “God the first” to emphasize his priority in the Godhead (TPJS, p. 190).

Colossians 1:15-16; Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.

Jesus and Lucifer are Brothers

Elder William H. Smart, Conference Report, April 1901, Overflow Meeting, p.53;My mind goes back when I contemplate this principle of obedience, to that which we learn in the Pearl of Great Price, when in the councils of heaven the foundations of the earth and the building thereof were taken into consideration. Two plans were laid before the councils and because of the bumble and obedient spirit that was shown in Jesus Christ, He was chosen to carry out that plan, which His Father approved, and Satan rebelled because the trust was given unto his more meek brother Jesus.

Hebrews 1:5; For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Jesus was Married

Journal of Discourses 2:210; I discover that some of the Eastern papers represent me as a great blasphemer, because I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children…All that I have to say in reply to that charge is this—they worship a Savior that is too pure and holy to fulfil the commands of his Father. I worship one that is just pure and holy enough “to fulfil all righteousness;” not only the righteous law of baptism, but the still more righteous and important law “to multiply and replenish the earth.” Startle not at this! for even the Father himself honored that law by coming down to Mary, without a natural body, and begetting a son; and if Jesus begat children, he only “did that which he had seen his Father do.”” – Orson Hyde, Salt Lake City, March 18, 1855.

2 Tim. 4:3-4; For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Jesus Married

Journal of Discourses 13:309;The Scripture says that He, the LORD, came walking in the Temple,   with HIS TRAIN; I do not now [sic] who they were, unless  HIS WIVES AND CHILDREN;...” – Brigham Young

Jesus, Mormons Worship a Different

The Living Christ, Ensign, May 1977, pg. 26; It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For example, from the Church of England’s Articles of Religion, article one, I quote: “There is but one living God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions.”

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships a God and a Jesus Christ with bodies, with parts, and with passions. We also believe that the trinity of the Godhead is made up of three separate personages—God, the Eternal Father; Jesus Christ, the Son of God—our Savior; and the Holy Ghost. These two concepts of the Trinity and their attributes are completely different.” – Bernard P. Brockbank, First Quorum of the Seventy

1 Corinthians 8:5-6; For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)  6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

All I can say to the entry above is, yep.  You do worship a different Jesus than I do.

Jesus on Council with Other gods

Behold the Lamb of God, pg. 17; He was a member of the Godhead—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. He participated in the Great Council of Heaven which decided that they should build a world, a world to which we might come as mortal beings and work out our salvation. I cannot but think that the same purpose had been present untold numbers of times for our Savior then to work out his world-creative work as he did for us. “Worlds without number have I created,” through “mine Only Begotten Son.”” – J. Reuben Clark

Mark 12:32-34; And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.  34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Jesus, One of Many Redeemers

Journal of Discourses 14:71: “Sin is upon every earth that ever was created … Consequently every earth has its redeemer, and every earth has its tempter.” – Brigham Young, Ogden, Utah, July 10, 1870.

1 Corinthians 1:23; But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.

Jesus’ Return in Independence, MO

www.prophetjosephsmith.org; Joseph Smith was then told that the members of the Church should buy as much land as possible west from Independence up to the line that designated the land of the Native Americans. Learning that Jackson County Missouri was Zion meant much to Joseph Smith and the members of the Mormon Church.  According to Mormon belief, Zion is a place where the pure in heart live. This can mean that Zion can be anywhere, but when God referred to Jackson County as Zion he also told Joseph that this land would be the New Jerusalem. This means that it is the gathering place where the ten tribes of Israel will gather before the second coming of Christ. The saints were eager to begin building up Zion so that they could further the preparations for the coming of Christ.

Zechariah 14:3-4; Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 ¶ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Also see D&C 57The “temple lot” stands empty of its prophetic calling which originated in 1831.

I cannot begin to understand their motives, but I do know it is not for my better interest.  I am going to talk about what the church does teach.  There is no need to dig deep to know this.

This should be a problem for the people listening to your speech.  Why wouldn’t you want to investigate and “dig deep” into anything this important?

What the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches is service to your fellow man, honesty, family values, a living prophet, faith in Jesus Christ and scripture study.

The first point I would like to make is scripture study.  I do believe that we benefit most from regular study of the gospel; both during Sunday school and at home with our families.  We build our testimony and our knowledge of heavenly father and the principles we live by.  Studying the Gospel, and inviting the Spirit of the Lord into our hearts, minds and homes is the only sure way we can stay focused on our eternal goals.  Today we have the benefit to have videos that depict gospel principles and make it easy for us to understand the gospel.  It is truly a blessing to those of us who would otherwise be confused by the language used in the scriptures.

Mormonism was started by the prophet Joseph Smith who in an answer to a prayer received the Book of Mormon.  This was testified by three witnesses and then eight witnesses who laid their hands upon the gold plates.  These were all honorable men who maintained this truth to their deaths.

The last two sentences are not true.

Several years ago I had an e-mail exchange with a young Mormon man about this subject.  Whenever I engage in a conversation about anything Mormon like this I want to be sure that I’ve done my share of investigation into the subject matter before I respond and that is what I did in this case.  To save some time on my part regarding this I’m pasting the information I sent to the previous e-mail here.

Since we can’t see or hold any physical evidence from the Book of Mormon let’s take a look at those witnesses to determine their credibility shall we?  A good standard to follow can be found in the Bible as it provides a great example of character witnesses in the twelve apostles!

A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 6:137-138 tells us the original 3 witnesses never held or saw the plates or transcripts in person.  The witnesses were comprised of Martin Harris, Oliver Cowderey and David Whitmer, in addition to Joseph Smith.

Instead, a heavenly messenger revealed the plates to them through a revelation and/or vision while praying out in the woods near Mr. Whitmer’s home.

In fact, the four gentlemen had been praying for awhile and still hadn’t received any word from God while asking Him to show them the plates.  After some time had passed Martin Harris decided he was the reason God had not revealed anything to them so he got up to pray in a different area.

After another period of time had elapsed, the group of three reports they received a vision of the plates.  Afterwards Joseph got up and went over to Harris to see if God had appeared to him as well.

Harris replied he hadn’t and begged Joseph to pray God would reveal these things to him as well so Joseph acquiesced and they both received a vision of the engravings.

Interestingly enough Comprehensive HC 6:88-89 admits that Joseph Smith is actually a psychic.  Their words, not mine!  This tidbit of information should seriously be taken into account when determining the reliability of their accounts.

Most of the witnesses (the 11 who are listed in the front of the Book of Mormon) are related to each other.  Example; Oliver Cowdery was married to the sister of the Whitmer brothers.  In the legal world this is unacceptable.  Every state has different rules in Notary Laws but none of them are allowed to notarize papers for blood relatives.  Additionally, there is no date stamped on the witness’s page which invalidates their testimony.

Why were 8 more witnesses added to the front page of the Book of Mormon when 2 Nephi 27:12 clearly states only three men would witness the plates?

The first 3 witnesses actually left the Church and were excommunicated.  While two did come back to the Church their mental stability must be taken into account.

For instance, the very superstitious Martin Harris belonged to more than thirteen denominations throughout his life.  The Cambellites in Pennsylvania being one of them.  Before he became a Mormon he belonged to at least five denominations and after his excommunication from the LDS Church he joined another eight.  (“Martin Harris: Mormonism’s Early Convert,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19 (Winter 1986):30-34.)

David Whitmer left the Church denying his testimony to the very end of his life even though he had rejoined the Church.  Additionally, he also said this in his book “An Address to All Believers in Christ, pgs 27-28;

If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to “separate myself from among the Latter Day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, should it be done unto them.

Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated from the Church on Friday, April 12, 1838 by a church court along with the Whitmers (his brothers-in-law), Hiram Page and William Phelps. (Far West Records for the LDS Church for April 3, 1838) 

Brigham Young said this about the witnesses;

Some of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and to disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel. One of the Quorum of twelve—a young man full of faith and good works, prayed, and the vision of his mind was opened, and the angel of God came and laid the plates before him, and he saw and handled them, and saw the angel, and conversed with him as he would with one of his friends; but after all this, he was left to doubt, and plunged into apostacy, [sic] and has continue to contend against this work. There are hundreds in a similar condition.

– Journal of Discourses 7:164

Young’s claims here are in direct opposition to what History of the Church claims.  Why is that?

Then there are the two different accounts from Joseph Smith when an angel visited him in the middle of the night;

1 – “The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi. That God had a work for me to do, and that my name should be had for good and evil…” – Times and Seasons, Vol. 3 (November 1841 – October 1842:pg. 753.

2 – “Moroni’s Message.  When first I looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil…” – History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 1:11-12.

So exactly who visited Smith that night?  Was it Nephi or Moroni?

Additional testimonies from others in the Church at the time of the writing of the Book of Mormon:

I did not see them [the plates] uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds…. Father and my brother Samuel saw them as I did while in the frock. So did Hyrum and others of the family.’ When the interviewer asked if he didn’t want to remove the cloth and see the bare plates, William replied, ‘No, for father had just asked if he might not be permitted to do so, and Joseph, putting his hand on them said; ‘No, I am instructed not to show them to any one. If I do, I will transgress and lose them again.’ Besides, we did not care to have him break the commandment and suffer as he did before.” – William Smith, Joseph’s brother, Zion’s Ensign, January 13, 1894, p. 6.

Emma Smith said that she never saw the plates.  She merely picked them up and moved them around with a piece of cloth that covered them at all times.  You can read her account in her own words from Last Testimony of Sister Emma,” The Saints’ Herald, Oct. 1, 1879, 290.

Now can you just imagine any of the apostles doing anything like the incidents mentioned above?  How credible would their testimonies be?  The NT wouldn’t have made it out of the first century!

In a country that was founded on the principle of freedom of religion, I am always taken a back whenever I watch church history videos and see how the early Mormons were persecuted.  And again, I come back to the same question – what have the Mormons done that was so offensive to people?  So many people sacrificed so much for us to reap the benefits of this church.  This is our heritage that we have been blessed with.  I testify that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that this church has always been led by a living prophet which today is Thomas Monson.

This brings me to my next point, faith in Christ.  Having faith in Christ includes having a firm belief that he is the son of God and the savior of the world. It means believing that he suffered for our sins and afflictions.  When we have faith in Christ, we accept his atonement and follow his teachings in our life.

Herein lies a couple of problems.

First of all, the United States Constitution wasn’t written to provide amnesty to anyone who is breaking the law.  You can’t just make up your own religion and claim that God told you to defraud, burn down buildings and marry multiple people and try to wrap yourself in the American flag.  In order for freedom to work properly laws are enacted which must be honored.

Secondly, Mormonism teaches that Jesus paid for the atonement in the Garden of Gethsemane in addition to teaching that Jesus’ atonement doesn’t cover all sin as stated earlier.  Here are some examples of Mormon teachings alongside what God says about that subject.

Garden of Gethsemane

Selected Writings of Daniel H. Ludlow: Gospel Scholars Series: pg. 243-244; The Fifth and Sixth Days (Thursday and Friday)…The Savior’s statement “the hour is come” was soon followed by his leaving the upper room and proceeding to the Mount of Olives and to the Garden of Gethsemane, where occurred one of the most important and transcendent events in the history of the world. It was here that he atoned for the original transgressions of Adam and Eve, and it was here that he took upon himself the sins of all mankind upon the condition of repentance of their sins.

John 18:11; Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?

Atonement for Sin

Doctrines of Salvation 1:130;We speak of the passion of Jesus Christ. A great many people have an idea that when he was on the cross, and nails were driven into his hands and feet, that was his great suffering. His great suffering was before he ever was placed upon the cross. It was in the Garden of Gethsemane that the blood oozed from the pores of his body” – Joseph Fielding Smith

Two pages later they said this;

Doctrines of Salvation 1:132;…For what he has done, we should never fail him. He bought us with a price, the price of his great suffering and the spilling of his blood in sacrifice on the cross.

And then three pages later they said this;

Doctrines of Salvation 1:135;Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church.

Hebrews 9:28; So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The state of Utah is unique in the sense that they are the only state in the Union which allows a convicted murderer on death row to choose the way they want to be executed.  Their choices:  lethal injection and firing squad.  There are 5 people sitting on death row in Bluffdale, Utah awaiting execution by firing squad.  In June 2010 there will be four men left.  A man by the last name of Garner will be executed for murdering a court bailiff while trying to escape during a sentencing hearing for another murder he committed.

Update:  Gardner was indeed executed by firing squad and he was indeed a Mormon.  How sad for this man to have lived a life of crime and then in the end not even know the difference between grace and the lies of the Mormon Church.

Atonement, Man Must Atone for Own Sin

Mormon Doctrine, pg. 92; But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins. Murder, for instance, is one of these sins; hence we find the Lord commanding capital punishment. Thus, also, if a person has so progressed in righteousness that his calling and election has been made sure, if he has come to that position where he knows “by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood” that he is sealed up unto eternal life (D. & C. 131:5), then if he gains forgiveness for certain grievous sins, he must “be destroyed in the flesh,” and “delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.” (D. & C. 132:19-27.)

Romans 10:13; For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How pathetically untrue the LDS teachings are!

Atonement; Mormon Atonement is Peculiar

B.H. Roberts, Seventies Course in Theology 4:113-114; Phase of the Atonement Peculiar to “Mormonism:” It may be remarked in passing that the difference noted in the foregoing paragraphs of this lesson on applying the Christ’s Atonement to Adam’s sin and man’s personal sins—in the first case unconditional, and in the second conditional—is a doctrine, in modern times, peculiar to “Mormonism;” or, to speak more accurately, to the New Dispensation of the Gospel revealed to Joseph Smith; and is derived almost wholly from the teachings of the Book of Mormon.

Galatians 3:15-17; Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.  16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.  17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Atonement, Place of

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, pg. 85; To meet the demands of the Atonement, the sinless Christ went first into the Garden of Gethsemane, there to bear the spiritual agony of soul only he could bear. He “began to be sorrowful and very heavy,” saying to his three chief disciples, “My soul is exceeding sorrowful, unto death” (Mark 14:34). Leaving them to keep watch, he went further into the garden, where he would suffer “the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam” (2 Ne. 9:21). There he “struggled and groaned under a burden such as no other being who has lived on earth might even conceive as possible” (JC, p. 613).

Hebrews 13:12; Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

The Mormon passage above is a prime example of heresy and what happens when you add to the word of God.  Jesus did not pay for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane.  He sanctified the people with His blood outside the gates as it said in Hebrews – also see John 18:11.

He gives us the inner strength and determination to meet life’s challenges.

How does he do this?

In Christianity the Bible tells us that the Holy Spirit resides inside the believer.  Jesus told us in the book of John that He would send the Comforter to us and that He would never leave nor forsake us.

In Mormonism it says the Holy Ghost does not stay as a constant companion. 

D&C 130:23; “A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

Compare with what Jesus said in John 14:16-18, 23;

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Abode in verse 23 means to tarry in the Greek.  This is in direct opposition to what Joseph Smith’s revelation stated in D&C 130:23.  I also find it interesting the verses are the same number…coincidence?  Probably not.

To have faith in Christ is to be willing to act on our belief in him.  Faith in Christ leads us to want to change our lives for the better.

Actually, that is a work performed by the Holy Spirit which resides inside the believer.  He supernaturally begins to change you from the inside out (Romans 5:5; Eph. 5:12; Titus 3:5)

We will want our thoughts and actions to be in harmony with the teachings that Heavenly Father has revealed through his son, Jesus Christ.   When we have faith in Christ, we believe in him, trust in him, and obey his commandments.

In keeping with the example of Christ, service to your fellow man is also a big part of Mormonism.  This is manifested in church callings, home teaching, missionary work and disaster relief efforts. Mormons wear “the workers seal” and combine their talents and work together for the good of man.  The lord pours out his blessings on both the people they serve and the people providing the service.  There is much joy in knowing that you have made a difference to someone, however small it may seem.  When we serve others we are doing those things that God would have us do for his children and therefore helping his work to go forth.

This church teaches us to be honest in our dealings with our fellow man.

People outside this church think under certain circumstances it’s ok to lie.

Not always true.  I know plenty of unbelievers who don’t think it’s okay to lie.

Some excuse themselves for stealing, thinking they deserve it more than the owner.  Some cheat to get better grades in school or to receive money they did not earn.  Others lie to protect themselves and their reputation.

Yep, there are a lot of people out there making poor choices in life, this is true.  Interestingly enough, there have been LDS Church leaders who’ve preached from the pulpit that it’s sometimes okay to lie for the Lord in order to protect the teachings of the Church.

Lying for the Lord

Preach My Gospel, pg. 50; When first teaching this doctrine, do not teach everything you know about it. Explain very simply that God chose two of His children, Adam and Eve, to become the first parents on earth. After their transgression they were subject to both sin and death. By themselves they could not return to live with Heavenly Father. The Lord spoke to Adam and taught him the plan of salvation and redemption through the Lord Jesus Christ. By following that plan, Adam and his family could have joy in this life and return to live with God (See Alma 18:36; 22:12-14).

Proverbs 6:16-19; These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Well, the Bible passage above covers just about everything now doesn’t it?

Members of this church cannot be corrupted; they are true to every trust, duty or agreement.

Really?

Mormons do not tell lies to others, do not tell only part of the truth, and do not lead a person to believe something that isn’t true.  Mormons always give what they owe and do not accept what they do not deserve.  Mormons do not cheat or steal.  Mormons are honest with people regardless of the circumstances, even if it cost money, friends or reputation.

Again, here is another example of an LDS Church leader teaching that it’s okay not to tell the whole truth.

Lying

Boyd K. Packer, “The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect”, 1981, BYU Studies, Vol. 21, No. 3, pp. 259-271; Church history can be so interesting and so inspiring as to be a very powerful tool indeed for building faith. If not properly written or properly taught, it may be a faith destroyer…There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not…Some things that are true are not very useful…Teaching some things that are true, prematurely or at the wrong time, can invite sorry and heartbreak instead of the joy intended to accompany learning.

Jesus said; “For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” in Matthew 11:30 and in John 8:31-32 the Bible states; “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

If the Church is true, then how could some of its beliefs be a faith destroyer?  Jesus said the truth makes us free!

This church teaches family values.  In a public declaration on September 24, 1890, Prophet Wilford Woodruff, after receiving revelation from God, issued the manifesto that ended the practice of plural marriage among the saints.  From that day on this church has taught that marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman.

This is wrong also.

First of all, why is D&C 132 still in the sacred canon of LDS scripture if polygamy isn’t true?  Additionally, here is what I wrote just a few months ago on the Manifesto.

In April 1904 Smith issued the 2nd Manifesto, once again declaring an end to the Mormon support of polygamy.  This came on the eve as Reed Smoot, a Mormon, was being sworn in as a U.S. Senator back in Washington D.C.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Manifesto

I’ve always found the date of this interesting on a personal note.  My great-great grandfather who already had three wives travelled to England in March of 1904 and summarily married a set of sisters and brought them back here to the States…hmmm…just in time…

Again, this “holy man of God” Smith, also evaded authorities by going on a mission to Hawaii instead of standing up for what he was preaching from the pulpit and changed his name to J. F. Speight.*

And following along in the ambiguous ways of these Mormon prophets, Smith was the one who instituted Family Home Evening in 1917.  Was this sending an unspoken message that he felt guilty for not being with his family because of the crimes he was committing?

You can read the whole article here: http://lifeafterministry.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/polygamy-and-mormon-church-leaders-6

This church teaches that children should only be conceived in the confines of a loving marriage.  This church teaches the roles of all members of the family unit.  We all are aware of Prophet Gordon Hinckley’s famous address “The Family, a proclamation to the world”.  In this address Prophet Hinckley said “We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. “.  We are all too aware of the world we currently live in.  We are all witnesses to a society where people do not possess moral values.  This is coming about through the warnings of a prophet of God.

This is coming about in spite of the warnings of what God tells us in His word –

1 Peter 5:8-11; “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. 11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

Truly the world we were chosen to live in today is in fact a result of “the disintegration of family”.  In many homes children are getting their values from what they see on TV, as it is often used as a babysitter, instead of parents making time for their children.  Today we have a generation of teenagers who are sexting on their cell phones, boys who walk around with their pants below their butts proudly showing off their boxer shorts, girls who wear shorts and sweats with words printed across their backsides.  Modesty is a thing of the past.  Teenagers as young as 12 are having children they cannot possibly take care of.  We have seen same-sex marriage legalized in state after state and these couples are now adopting children.

You left out the problem with polygamy.

Schoolchildren in California are being taught “gay history” and acceptance of homosexuality has even permeated the military.  Pornography is a billion dollar industry today.  These things contribute to the self-destructive society that we are witness to.  We need not be ashamed of our beliefs nor to defend our stance on the family.  Society outside this church proves what happens when people do not live and teach these values.

The final point I would like to make is what usually happens when people “decide” that the church is not true.  They typically do not go church shopping; they do not try to find another place of worship.  Usually the first things people do are along the lines of purchasing alcohol and cigarettes and committing sin.   Life generally does not improve for these people for they have allowed Satan to take over their hearts.

Okay here we go.

This is just another reason why people who leave the Church just shake their heads in bewilderment.

Why is it that when people have decided the Mormon Church has lied to them and they leave they automatically become a bunch of smoking drunkards who can’t stop sinning?

Can you show me proof that everyone who leaves the Church does this?

While I believe that smoking isn’t the best thing in the world for you to do I am just amazed that Mormons will start hurling accusations at those who’ve decided to leave.

Can you show me from scripture that drinking is a sin?

What about Jesus?

Is He a sinner because He drank wine?

This brings me to the story of Lyman Johnson and Thomas Marsh.  Lyman Johnson and Thomas Marsh were original members of the quorum of the twelve apostles.  Pursuing their own self-interest they, and several others, made the decision to leave the church.  They had denounced the prophet Joseph Smith.  The result is section 112 of the Doctrine & Covenants;  In this revelation from God the Prophet Joseph Smith spoke to Thomas Marsh (who was president of the quorum of the twelve at the time) these words “Verily I say unto you, there have been some few things in thine heart and with the with which I, the Lord, was not well pleased.  Exalt not yourselves, rebel not against my servant Joseph, for verily I say unto you I am with him and my hand shall be over him and the keys I have given him shall not be taken from him”.   The lord God had issued a warning through the prophet.  Despite this, Lyman Johnson and Thomas Marsh would both leave the church.  Thomas Marsh would later return but Lyman Johnson would not.  Lyman Johnson was allowed to speak one last time before the twelve in Nauvoo.  He said of leaving the church “If I could believe Mormonism as I did when I traveled with you and preached I would give anything.  I would suffer my right hand to be cut off if I could believe it again.  I was full of joy and gladness.  My dreams were pleasant and when I woke in the morning my spirit was cheerful, full of peace and joy.  Now its darkness, pain, sorrow, misery.  I have never since seen a happy moment.”  When Thomas Marsh returned with the saints in Salt Lake he said “If there should be any among this people who would apostatize and do as I have done, prepare your backs for a good whipping.  I have come to the conclusion that I had lost the spirit of the lord from my heart and the devil began to lead me.  It was easy for the carnal mind to rise up and anger, jealousy and wrath.  I thank God that I am back here with the prospect of seeing the kingdom of God. ”

My brothers and sisters we have been given a great gift in this church from those who came before us.  We must not allow the agents of Satan to take away that which brings us happiness, moral values and peace of mind.  The temptation will always be there.  There will always be those that will be quick to tell you that what you believe in does not make sense.  To that I say the teachings of this church make the most sense in today’s demoralized world.

Actually, God’s pure, unadulterated word makes the most sense.

I am proud to be a member of Christ’s church here on earth and will always do my best to serve in whatever capacity I am asked.  In the words of Wilford Woodruff, the 4th Prophet, “we all should be united in the cause in which we are engaged.  Inasmuch as we do this we shall come off triumphant. We and the world may set our hearts at rest concerning Mormonism, for it will never cease until the lord Jesus Christ comes in the clouds of heaven”.  I say this in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

I pray you truly read my entire response and seek the truth.  I pray you take plenty of time to do an exhaustive search on the history of the Church and all its teachings and then compare your findings with what God says in the Bible and be the most analytical person you can be.

The reason I have this website and ministry is simple.  He gave me everything.  I am now a residing member of the Kingdom of God.  I am free.  I am His child based upon my belief in God’s Son and what He did for me ON THE CROSS, not because the heavenly father of Mormonism spiritually begat me through a sexual union with some unnamed heavenly mother.  I have absolute assurance I am saved and will reside with Him in heaven when I die.

That is why I have this ministry.  He has commissioned me to go out unto the world and teach – Matthew 28:19-20.

Know that we’re praying for you John and hope to hear from you soon.

With Love in Christ;

Michelle Grim

1 Corinthians 1:18

Tags: , , , , , , , ,

2 Responses to “E-mail from a Mormon; “Why Would They Lie””

  1. CamdenC August 9, 2011 at 4:04 am #

    I left the church because I was told that I was not a true Christian and was invited to a Christian church service. The sermon was on Ephesians 2: 8 and 9. “We are saved by grace, not works… so no man can boast”.

    The Holy Spirit tugged on my heart and prompted me to investigate why I was told that I was not a real Christian.

    I didn’t go out and smoke and drink when I left… I was already smoking and getting drunk (jack mormon). When I gave my life to Jesus, he took those burdens away from me!

  2. CamdenC August 9, 2011 at 5:04 am #

    CORRECTION: I was not getting drunk as I stated in my previous post. That was not a LIE, just it’s late here and I got my timeline mixed up.

    I was actually in a 12 step program for drugs and alcohol when I got the prompting from the Holy Spirit. I started drinking and drugging when I was 16 years old. Yes, I was of “priest age”, but hey, I was partying with all the other guys in my priest qorumn (spelling?). We were up there on Sunday morning, hungover or high, blessing the sacrament. We didn’t have the Grace of Jesus and the changed heart. We were like “whitewashed tombs”, full of legalism, hypocricy, and angst. I was brought up on rules and regulations and it was time to “rebel” against them.

    I saw the hipocricy in my own family, starting at my grandfather. He drank “Sanka” which is a coffee substitute. He told “off color” jokes that would demean and degrade women.I saw it in my dad and uncle who thought it was nothing to tell “N-word” jokes. In fact, that is pretty much the only jokes I knew growing up. That and jokes about Polish people. There is a phrase that us Christians like to use for people like that… “They live like Hell during the week, and become a saint on Sunday morning”.

    True that the church has great family values, unfortunately it is too the point of putting family before God. Jesus says to put Him first above all else. They have a good missionary program too, but I know many “horror” stories of 18 year old guys that just go on a mission due to “positive peer pressure”. It’s like the priesthood of the church. “Well, you just turned 12 years old, BAM! you’re a Deacon. The Bible says that a Deacon should be the husband of one wife. So when you turn 18, BAM! you go on a mission. It’s more out of duty than an actual calling from God. One of the guys in our men’s Bible study (mid to late 20’s) just left for Suriname down in South America. Not because he was a certain age, but because he felt God leading him in that direction. He quit his job, sold everything he has, left friends and family and comfort to go live in pretty much a hut in the jungle. We are supporting him anyway we can through prayer and basic needs.

    And what about tithing in the church? Couple of stories (first hand experiences). Knew a guy that was a member and he worked for a member. The boss would take the employees’ 10% off the top of his check for tithing like an automatic deduction. Whether the employee wanted it taken out or not. The Bible says that God loves a cheerful giver. I give each week, not so that I will be “worthy” to go to the temple or my station in the next life depends on it. I give because I am so thankful for what God has given me (everything). I give so that the good news of Jesus can be spread. To help missionaries. To feed the hungry. House the homeless. etc… It is an honor and privelage knowing that He will always meet my needs. Tithing shows that I trust Him above all else. The market just took a major plunge, but hey I have Jesus!
    Knew another guy in the church. He commited a dire sin and was excomunicated. The church told him that he couldn’t go to the temple, perform his priesthood duties, hold church jobs, couldn’t partake sacrament. What could he do? He could attend Sacrament meetings and pay his tithing…
    Where does the tithing go if not to pay for the ministry staff? To build more temples? When Jesus told the disciples to go out and not take a purse or money, it was because Christians would be there for the evangalist’s to provide for their needs.

    Sadly, there are pastors out there that want the Christians to provide for their “greeds” as well. We “flee” from those types of ministers. They do not represent the body of Christ if they are driving 100,000 dollar cars and wearing 5,000 dollar suits. Contrary to what you have been told by the LDS church, true Christians are not it for the money. True Christians don’t believe that they can live un-holy lives full of lies, deceit, adultry, fornication, theft, drunkeness, debauchory, etc like the Grace that God gives is a license for sinning. Jesus said, “if you love Me, you will keep My commandments”. What are those commandments? Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. And love your neighbor as yourself. Loving God means that we want to do things that are pleasing to Him. But if we do sin, we can ask forgiveness and be cleansed from that sin.

    They don’t have websites like this because they are working for the devil, nor are they “gainsayers”, doing what they do for profit, money, or glory. We witness to LDS because we have compassion for them. And, we are simply defending our faith against the claim by Jospeh Smith that we are all destitute of any authority. That we are all apostate. That we draw near to Him with our lips, but our hearts are far from Him. We are defending ourselves against Marion Romney calling us the “whore of babylon, whom the Lord renounces”.

    My experience has been that I want a pastor that is fully devoted to Sheparding the flock, not a “weekend warrior” like the LDS have. Bishop so and so is an Electrician during the week, but on Sunday morning he becomes “The Bishop”. I need a man of God that is deeply in tune with the Word of God and fully devoted to the preaching/teaching of the word and sheparding the congregation.

    There is freedom in a true and real relationship with Christ. It’s gotta be, more like falling in love, than something to believe in. More like losing my heart, than giving my allegience…

Leave a Reply

%d bloggers like this: